Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[uwisfan]

all you need to do is listen to one conference from Ned after ANY game. Pick ANY, win or lose. You will understand what is meant by condescending. If its a win, its "yeah I told you this and that, and it worked". If it's lose, it's "you dont know what I know"

[Roscoe Chill]

See naivin, I don't question every move Ned Yost makes. I'm sorry you feel that way. Conversely, I KNOW that you'll defend every move he makes. I'm fair in my criticism. Like I said, if Suppan had given up ONE more baserunner, there's no question. And like I said, Suppan may have given up the homer too, you never know. But to answer your comment, no I wouldn't have turned around and said Suppan left him in too long. Now, if Suppan gave up that single, then another single, and then a walk, and he left him in there? Sound familiar? That's a different story.

 

I'm not saying Brian Shouse hasn't been good. I'm saying that Suppan not only looked great, quite frankly he deserved to face one more batter. The way things were going there was a good chance it would have been an out.

[naivin]

You can even look at the IGT. There were plenty of people that were questioning the move before Shouse gave up the homer. This wasn't completely hindsight.

Yep. There sure were. Unfortunatley, NDOG wasn't one of them. Nope, he didn't show up to question it until after the ball left the yard. Convenient, no?

[Roscoe Chill]

Well believe it or not, I was posting "Why would he pull Suppan after that" the moment that ball went out of the yard. Like I said naivin I don't see what's so difficult between one baserunner = why pull him...three hits in a row = take him out there. Ned seems to do the opposite. Again, I'm not the type that will rip him no matter what the decision is based on the outcome. But you go ahead and keep thinking otherwise. I'll post my thoughts on his moves in this thread.

[UndraftedFA]

I don't think that people questioning moves in the IGT make them right anymore than hindsight either. It is easy to criticize other's work when you don't have to put your own opinions up for any accountability.

[naivin]

See naivin, I don't question every move Ned Yost makes. I'm sorry you feel that way. Conversely, I KNOW that you'll defend every move he makes. I'm fair in my criticism.

I will? I wasn't aware of that, but thanks for letting me know. We're what, 17 games into the season, and that's the first move that I have actually defended, so I'm not 100% sure on this, but I'm thinking you might be wrong. Check that, I am 100% sure. By my count, Ned has cost the Brewers 11 losses and has cost them 6 wins. Not too shaby.

[Roscoe Chill]

I forgot his primary goal is winning this year, so he's the man for the job.

 

If you don't like words being put in your mouth, then try to avoid doing so to me. And calling me out because I didn't hit "post" 10 seconds earlier and then editing my post to reflect what happened.

[1992casey]

naivin, please attempt to address the message rather than attacking the messenger.

[trwi7]

By my count, Ned has cost the Brewers 11 losses and has cost them 6 wins.

 

Now I'm no mathematician but to me this seems pretty crappy. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[endaround]

There is no way that can avoid "The math is on our side!"

[jazzytrav]

I don't think that people questioning moves in the IGT make them right anymore than hindsight either. It is easy to criticize other's work when you don't have to put your own opinions up for any accountability.

Since none of our opinions will be put up for any actual accountability (won't have an effect on the game), then why even bother posting? Why bother having a site where people can post their opinions if it's all hindsight even if it's said before the event? I know that my opinion won't have any effect on the game, but that doesn't mean I have to be happy that he pulled Suppan in that particular situation.

 

He was at 85 pitches, he had one baserunner on a fluke single, and I imagine it's a good thing to save your relievers early in the year if you can. This is a situation where they definitely could have. I also agree with what GormanHarvey said in the IGT, which is that it just seems like he's trying to follow some kind of book and doesn't have a feel for the game.

 

It wasn't like I thought Shouse was going to give up a home run. If I said that I would either be extremely lucky or the greatest scout in the history of baseball. I actually figured he would still get them out of the inning. I just thought they should have saved Shouse for later when Griffey and Dunn came up, probably in the 9th. Contrary to popular belief, the "closer" doesn't have to finish every single game that's a save opportunity...but that's a whole different gripe http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[UndraftedFA]

jazzytrav wrote:

---

Since none of our opinions will be put up for any actual accountability (won't have an effect on the game), then why even bother posting?

Did I say not to have message boards or opinions? I don't think I did.

Personally, I would have left in Suppan also, but I think the move to Shouse was a good move also. He could save the bullpen, but that is also the situation Shouse has a spot on the team for. I don't understand complaints about the "closer" when every manager does things the exact same way. I don't think Melvin is going to hire message board gurus to manage the team anytime soon. If they fire Yost, the next manager is going to do the exact same things. It will simply be a new guy to complain about(even if it is a message board guy).

 

Yost gets railed on for going by the book. Yost gets railed on for going by feel. There is no agreement on what the man actually does wrong. My whole point is if everyone's opinion on a message board is suppose to be valid, why aren't Yost opinions valid? My problem isn't that people have different opinions. My problem is that people that become too narrow-minded to understand other's opinions.

 

(pared back long nested quote --1992)

[jazzytrav]

I thought you said that saying it was a bad move was essentially hindsight, even though it was said before anything bad happened, because our opinions are held to any accountability. I'm not claiming to have foresight, because I didn't expect a home run. But I also don't think it's hindsight since I'm not blaming Yost for the home run. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong, so please correct me if that's wrong.

 

The situation was that NDOG pointed out that it was a move he disagreed with, regardless of the result. He was accused of using hindsight. I merely pointed out that there were several people complaining about the move before Shouse gave up the home run. I don't think anyone expected Shouse to give up the home run, and I don't think anyone is claiming that this was a bad move because Shouse was somehow likely to give up a home run (which he obviously wasn't). I just don't see how the opinions are using some form of hindsight when the disagreement happens before Shouse even threw a pitch.

 

As for the "closer" thing, that's just a personal opinion of mine, which is why I ended it with a smiley face. I'm not saying that I don't want Gagne in there with the game on the line whenever possible, but since Gagne had pitched two days in a row already and Griffey and Dunn were likely coming up, I saw it as a situation that would be perfect for Shouse.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Since none of our opinions will be put up for any actual accountability (won't have an effect on the game), then why even bother posting?

 

Because we have nothing better to do.

[strawbossisevil]

I think Yost just played the math. The tying run was at the plate, and so he wanted to bring in the person who he felt would be best against Votto and put down the threat.

 

It isn't like Yost, made this move in the 3rd inning, there were two outs in the 7th. So, he went with the best pitcher he had against lefties in Shouse. I would contend that even while Suppan was hitting his spots, just the fact that he is right handed makes him more hittable than a lefty like Shouse who hides the ball so well.

 

If you played this exact situation out 100 times, Yost's move probably plays out favorable more often than if he had left Suppan in the game. The fact that he made the more mathematically correct move and had it backfire on him in this one instance, does not make it the wrong move. That's baseball, in that sometimes you'll make the best possible move and still get burned.

 

In his career, Suppan has an OPS against of .842 from pitch 76 to 100, up almost 100 points from before that pitch count. Shouse's career OPS against lefties is .598. So basically, just looking at it from a statistical point of view, by bringing in Shouse, the statistics say that the expected OPS against for that at bat went down nearly .250. Even on his best days, I doubt he could match what Shouse does against lefties.

 

All in all, I liked the move to bring in Shouse in that situation. With the tying run at the plate, Yost decided not to mess around and to play his best chip forward. Unfortunately for him it didn't work out and now the second guessers are out in full force. But let's try to recognize that the move was hardly one based merely on managerial stupidity. Let's give Yost a little credit in playing the numbers in a tight game. Even if it didn't work out in this instance.

[logan82]

jazzytrav wrote:

As for the "closer" thing, that's just a personal opinion of mine, which is why I ended it with a smiley face. I'm not saying that I don't want Gagne in there with the game on the line whenever possible, but since Gagne had pitched two days in a row already and Griffey and Dunn were likely coming up, I saw it as a situation that would be perfect for Shouse.

I think many people share your opinion of closer usage. Tying your best reliever to the 9th inning is a terrible waste. However, Yost isn't alone in that mismanagement. Almost every single team in MLB picks a guy as closer and sticks with him.

[endaround]

My biggest problem is that Yost uses the closer whenever there is a save situation. 4 run lead two outs, bottom of the 9th, man reaches base on an infield single. The closer now has to get up because one more batter reaches base and we have a save situation!

[jazzytrav]

All in all, I liked the move to bring in Shouse in that situation. With the tying run at the plate, Yost decided not to mess around and to play his best chip forward. Unfortunately for him it didn't work out and now the second guessers are out in full force. But let's try to recognize that the move was hardly one based merely on managerial stupidity. Let's give Yost a little credit in playing the numbers in a tight game. Even if it didn't work out in this instance.

As I've noted several times, the "second guessers" were second-guessing this BEFORE he gave up the home run. In no way has anyone questioned whether Shouse could have gotten Votto out. I was practically banking on it. I just thought that since Suppan was rolling, there was no need to waste a reliever on one batter when he could have been used in a later situation with, in my opinion, a much greater impact.

 

So is he going to start pulling pitchers every time there's one runner on after the 7th inning? If the pitcher can't locate the strike zone and starts walking guys, then I would say it's time to pull him. If there are two outs, the pitcher is obviously not tired, and he gives up a fluke single, there's no reason to pull him.

[strawbossisevil]

I could care less when they second guessed him. The statistics above show why it may have been statistically wise for Yost to make the move when he did. You can disagree with his reasoning but to act as if it was a stupid move when the statistics clearly favor Ned is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. He was seeking to put his pitchers in the best position to succeed. Had the offense scored more than three runs, I'm sure Suppan would have been given a bit longer leash, but with the way the ball flies out of GAB, I can see why he would be especially careful.

 

The problem is not when anyone claims to have decided when they disagree with him. The fact is we have a number of posters who are Sunday morning quarterbacks on this website which go out of the way to criticize any possible move, so that if it does fail, they can run to the vent thread to be vindicated in the idea that they are better than Ned.

 

One other point, that I've made in the past, is that we aren't privy to the information that Yost has. Perhaps Suppan was tired already, and had mentioned that to Yost before heading out for the inning. We know from past interviews that these situations happen somewhat frequently, but since they aren't publically stated, some rip down the manager because of this lack of information. Just something to consider, no way to prove whether this was the case or not. But its something to consider whenever a move is made that some jump on.

[jazzytrav]

Those same stats that you posted also show why Shouse would have been great in the 9th against Dunn and Griffey. I'm not claiming to be better or smarter than Ned Yost, nor to have better information than him. It's my opinion that we would have gotten more use out of Shouse in the 9th, and given the situation I didn't think it paid to waste Shouse on one batter in the 7th, especially when I don't think that batter is yet as dangerous as either Dunn or Griffey, let alone both of them back-to-back.

[jjfanec]

Oddily enough I thought Yost should have left Suppan in but I was happy that he went to Shouse because I like that he is going to his bullpen a little quicker than last year. I feel like with Mota, Torres, Shouse, and Riske pitching well, it better to go to the bullpen earlier than last year.

[strawbossisevil]

Except what you fail to point out is that no manager would use Shouse in the 9th inning. Not Ned, not Pinella, not any manager. Like it or not, but any manager is going to put in Gagne in that situation.

 

So basically, your fault isn't with Ned's handling of the situation, but the way baseball managers handle "closing" situations in general. I won't disagree with you there, but to lay that on Ned is a bit unfair IMO.

[dlk9s]

I was about to write that Votto has had success against Suppan (very small sample size - 4 for 7 with 1 HR and 4 RBI), so that might have come into play, but then I saw that Votto had been 2 for 2 against Shouse before the game.

 

At any rate, I can see both arguments. I would've been cool with Suppan staying in, but I liked the move Yost made. For all we know, Suppan was getting a bit tired and Yost told him before the inning that he would yank him if a runner got on. Shouse almost always gets the lefty out, so you might as well go with the percentages. As strawboss said (which I had not thought about previously), if Dunn and Griffey come up in the 9th, Gagne is facing them, anyway.

[DougJones43]

Why wasn't Gallardo pinch hit for in the 8th inning today? His pitch count was 112, and he was removed immidiately to begin the next inning. There was really no chance of him pitching the next inning obviously, so why was he allowed to hit? Call me crazy, but I'd like an actual position player up to bat during a 1-1 game in the 8th, with 1 man on and 0 outs. Instead of giving the team a decent chance to score and potentially take the lead, we get nothing. This seems like exactly the type of subtle lack of foresight that could easily cost the Brewers a ballgame.

[PeaveyFury]

There was really no chance of him pitching the next inning obviously, so why was he allowed to hit?

 

He was up there to bunt. Being short handed on the bench and since Yo handles the bat very well, it was a good call.