Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[logan82]

Ennder wrote:

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Joe Girardi is on my list of managers clearly worse than Yost.

I do agree that Girardi is clearly worse than Yost. The Brewers' equivalent of his season in Florida would be adding Weeks, Hardy, Gallardo and Parra to a bad team with Fielder on it. The players called up in his year managing Florida was ridiculous and in my opinion had more to do with their record than anything he did. Add to that 3 wrecked young arms the next year and he had a negative overall impact.

 

Yost is by no means perfect, but I think looking as closley at other managers as we do Yost would reveal they are all questionable and most teams would be better off using a stack of spreadsheets to make in game decisions.

[naivin]

Judging managers is 100% subjective.

 

How come it's subjective when you point out things that are negative about nedly and "concrete" when you point out things for Ned?

Ummmm...its not. Its subjective in both cases, thus the 100%. I was asked earlier today to provide concrete reasons I like Ned. I did that (BTW, those are subjective too).

 

MLB is not an IROC race. Until all rosters are created equally, things like W-L record are rather useless in judgung one manager against another.

[brewcrew00]

Yost is by no means perfect, but I think looking as closley at other managers as we do Yost would reveal they are all questionable and most teams would be better off using a stack of spreadsheets to make in game decisions.

Thank you, I was looking for those words. I highly doubt anyone on this board follows another team as close as they do the Brewers, however I'd be willing to bet if someone did, they would find just as many "poor" decisions made by that team's manager. It's such a crap shoot, because there are so many different things that go into each situation. Assistant coaches, front office staff, talent on the big club's roster, talent in the system, scouts and talent evaluators, instructors at the lower levels, and so on. Personally, I think it is extremely unfair to pin the majority of your criticisms on one person, in this case Ned. (Any manager on any other team for that matter).

 

Look at Joe Torre for example, guy gets run out of NY, people were just sick of him and fed up with the whole situation. All of the sudden, heads out to LA, and they love him. Larry Bowa calls him the best thing that has happened to the Dodgers organization.

 

I just don't understand how a manager can be considered "better" than another manager after only being in the league for one year. It takes so much time to learn the game, it becomes debatable if any manager in the history of the game has ever successfully "understood" all that entails each and ever single game. Reasons like this are what drive me to love baseball so much, just when you think you got it, you realize you have no semblance of a clue.

[Roscoe Chill]

I mean, I could start a list of 'questionable' decisions throughout the season (before hindsight is factored in) and come up with a pretty long list. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean bad things will happen. But, for instance, there is absolutely no reason Gabe Gross should be batting 2nd on this team. Back in 1998? Sure. Gabe Gross batting second because he is replacing someone in the lineup who batted second makes no sense to me.

Like I said, I could go on with many, but I won't. The 'pros' that I keep getting are still of the 'the team plays hard and knows their role, so Ned has the whole team's respect' variety. First off, how in the heck do you know whatsoever how the team feels about Ned Yost? To me, when Braun and Fielder went to Skaalen after hearing Ned battle the press about the batting order, that shows more of the opposite...not saying that's the case, but I don't know if Prince Fielder and the rest of the team respects Ned Yost through and through. And neither does naivin. I can't debate statements like the team knows their role, plays hard, and respects Ned.

[brewcrew00]

He kept Gross hitting 2nd to be consistent with the lineup for when Cameron comes back, now only one player has to adjust into their spot in the lineup, while the other 8 are already established.

 

And I'm glad you brought this up, because it's also part of my point... Last year, Ned gets shredded for messing with the lineup too often. So this year, HIS STAFF sets a lineup in Spring Training, and decides it's best to just rotate that two spot with whoever is playing Center, and let the other guys have a permanent home in the lineup (which is what everybody wanted) and now he's getting blasted for that. There will always be a camp who hates Ned regardless if they win 162 games. That is what is so frustrating.

[fondybrewfan]

I like Ned, I've always like Ned and if he ever is fired I'll be sad to see him go. He is by no means a perfect manager. His biggest flaw has been his bullpen management but when you consider what kind of pitchers we have had their in the past you can see why he was indecicive at times. He does a decent job with the lineup and is not stubborn about a specific batting order. He does get his players to play hard all the time and he has their respect. He is not afraid to go out and stick up for his guys and maybe sometimes he goes to far (Pujols last year). It is completely unfair to judge based upon his wins and losses because when he first came he had a couple years of just awful teams. It is no suprise to me that all of these young guys have come up and played extremely well (Fielder, Braun, Hart, Gallardo, Hardy).

 

I could probably count the guys I would rather have that I think would fit with a young team like outr on one hand.

[lukevan]

I'd list batting Kapler 2nd among Ned's successful decisions this year.

[Brewer Fever]

Now are we supposed to applaud him for making a switch us fans figured out months earlier? I don't know what it is with this guy but every year I hear fans and message boarders screaming for changes that Yost talks down then winds up making weeks or months later. Last year it took him half a season to get Hart in the 5-hole after we screamed it for weeks. So I guess Yost's bone-headedness is becoming less-prolonged. Progress. The real frustrating part is how talks down to fans and acts like he holds this superior baseball knowledge yet winds up making the same changes Brewerfan nation figured out long before.

[brewtank34]

Now are we supposed to applaud him for making a switch us fans figured out months earlier? I don't know what it is with this guy but every year I hear fans and message boarders screaming for changes that Yost talks down then winds up making weeks or months later. Last year it took him half a season to get Hart in the 5-hole after we screamed it for weeks. So I guess Yost's bone-headedness is becoming less-prolonged. Progress. The real frustrating part is how talks down to fans and acts like he holds this superior baseball knowledge yet winds up making the same changes Brewerfan nation figured out long before.

i couldn't have said it better. Yes, Hall has 5 HR's already which is nice, but Hart is the perfect 5 hitter and Hall is the perfect 6 hitter...why oh why can't Yost see this? At least he made the change, so that's a good start. We'll take it.

[TooLiveBrew]

he made the change, so that's a good start. We'll take it.

 

Agreed. It was really refreshing to see the lineup yesterday. I did a double-take.

[TooLiveBrew]

Look at Joe Torre for example, guy gets run out of NY, people were just sick of him and fed up with the whole situation. All of the sudden, heads out to LA, and they love him. Larry Bowa calls him the best thing that has happened to the Dodgers organization.

 

Torre is arguably the most overrated manager in MLB history, largely due to using W-L% as the measuring stick. Of course Bowa said that about Torre, he loved him in NY. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif It'll be interesting to see how Torre manages in the NL now.

[logan82]

Isn't princesspea(sp?) a Yankees fan? She should chime in on Torre.

[TooLiveBrew]

Principessa is indeed a Yankees fan -- definitely not a Torre fan. Let me see if I can get her to post...

[Principessa21]

Isn't princesspea(sp?) a Yankees fan? She should chime in on Torre.

I am a Yankee fan and I did a dance of joy when Torre left. I won't go into detail now why I wanted him gone, but off the top of my head he was a terrible in-game manager, he couldn't manage the bullpen, and he favored veterans over better players. You just never knew what he was going to do: letting Weaver pitch in the 03WS, not bunting on Schilling in 04, batting ARod 8th, pulling Giambi in the close games, the Joba bug thing last year, etc. And don't get me started on how $5mil and options was not enough to come back. I hear the criticisms on Girardi, but I appreciate how hands-on he is with all aspects of the club and he never looks like he's going to nap during a game. He evens keeps a BP book in his office!

 

[TooLiveBrew]

(as in, Baseball Prospectus...)

[brewcrew00]

Now are we supposed to applaud him for making a switch us fans figured out months earlier? I don't know what it is with this guy but every year I hear fans and message boarders screaming for changes that Yost talks down then winds up making weeks or months later. Last year it took him half a season to get Hart in the 5-hole after we screamed it for weeks. So I guess Yost's bone-headedness is becoming less-prolonged. Progress. The real frustrating part is how talks down to fans and acts like he holds this superior baseball knowledge yet winds up making the same changes Brewerfan nation figured out long before.

You are right. Ned should be making snap decisions and having town hall meetings every time something might need adjustment. I knew there was a reason so many baseball teams are managed by the fans...

And just out of curiosity, when has Ned talked down to fans? I've always found him to be a pretty good guy actually?

 

 

 

[Brewer Fever]

Realizing that Corey Hart was a better hitter than Bill Hall was far from a snap decision. And last year when the team was desperate in their search for production form the 5-hole, the fine posters here at BF.net realized long before Ned that the man for the job was on the roster all along in the form of Corey Hart.

 

Sidenote: I don't know why some people assume that because someone has a managerial job in major league baseball that he must be some kind of baseball savant or something. My uncle was a very successful major league scout, and shockingly I was able to carry on very intelligent baseball conversation with him. And even more amazingly, we very often held the same viewpoints. He too agreed that Hart was the man to bat 5th long before Ned finally made the realization. Brewer fans can thank him for turning the team on to Vinny Rottino btw.

 

People need to get over the idea that Ned Yost has a better baseball mind than each and every baseball fan. The bottom line is for as much as Ned likes to say the fans don't see what he sees every day, he has a propensity for later making the very same changes the fans have been calling for weeks and months previous. In more cases than not, resulting in positive change. It kind of makes him look like a stubborn tool.

[Roscoe Chill]

And just out of curiosity, when has Ned talked down to fans? I've always found him to be a pretty good guy actually?

Last year, when the going got tough, and the not so tough questions were asked...he brought up fans in a 'they don't know' light. I believe in one post game press conference when asked about a pitching decision etc. his answer was "IT'S SCOTT LINEBRINK!!" Like Linebrink was Mariano Rivera. Just pay attention, he'll do it again this year.

[Fatter than Joey]

And just out of curiosity, when has Ned talked down to fans? I've always found him to be a pretty good guy actually?

 

I find him ultra-surly and snarky when asked about questions about his decisions in a game.

 

I think if he was a posted on BF.net he get banned rather quickly.

 

There was that whole "couch" comment last year, and then he lied about hitting Pujols, and many many other things.

[brewcrew00]

I was more curious if any of you have had an experience personally with Ned talking down to fans. I don't mean through the media. I can speak from experience that when something is even the slightest off with a promotion or a single game, the guests/fans are the worst people out there. I would snap if I had media on my tail about it 24/7 as well. I just don't think Ned has been blatantly rude to a fan per say.

[Roscoe Chill]

Pitcher gives up three consecutive base runners...leave him in. Pitcher dominating and under 90 pitches? Take him out after a weak single.

 

That's Ned Yost.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Come on now. Shouse has been getting outs and it was the best matchup. Hindsight is always 20/20.

[Roscoe Chill]

It wasn't hindsight to me. I wondered aloud why he was pulling him before anything happened. If he would have given up that single, and then a walk, or another hit with the next batter...I have no problem with Suppan getting the hook then. It may have been only a one batter difference, and Suppan may have given up the homer also...that's not the point. Suppan shouldn't have been pulled in that situation, and other times it's obvious that the pitcher should be pulled and it doesn't happen until it's too late. Like someone (Gorman Harvey) said in the in game thread, he has no feel for the game.

[jazzytrav]

You can even look at the IGT. There were plenty of people that were questioning the move before Shouse gave up the homer. This wasn't completely hindsight.

[naivin]

Pitcher gives up three consecutive base runners...leave him in. Pitcher dominating and under 90 pitches? Take him out after a weak single.

 

That's Ned Yost.

Right. Shouse always gives up home runs and almost never gets the job done in that situation. What a stupid move by Yost. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

 

Why do I get the feeling...check that, why do I know that you would have been here criticizing Yost had he left Suppan in instead of bringing in Shouse to face Votto, and he gave up the home run?