Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[tristarscoop]

Apparently some fans were told we'd win 150 games this year.

 

I'm just glad it's 70 degrees outside and there's a baseball game on tonight. The offense will come around, Mike Cameron will help a lot, Yo is coming back soon. I said it in the IGT yesterday and I'll say it again, I just can't get upset about most things in April. It's just way too early.

 

I couldn't imagine the amount of "worried?" threads there would be if this were Tigerfan.net.

Makes me want to put the TV in the window and "tailgate" in my backyard. That's a stellar point and is reminding me to just chill and enjoy this.

 

[brewcrew00]

Good posts guys, I hope my thoughts on the situation didn't come across as condescending, as there was no ill will in any of them.

 

That being said, from the camp who supports Yost, which I do fully, it becomes frustrating to see a new thread every day bashing the littlest things the guy does. Or even worse, to take an awesome post game show (1250) and turn it in to a whine fest about the smallest of details, even in games the Brewers win. I do enjoy reading about why people do/don't like Ned, and hope we can continue talking about this, it just gets frustrating when it's the same grinding criticism is the only thing focused on day in and day out.

[adambr2]

I do like Ned because he does try to use all information available to him to make an informed decision. Evidence of that, the pitcher batting 8th this year. I'm glad he's not afraid to against it just because it's not conventional.

 

I don't like that sometimes he seems bitterly stubborn. Sometimes I feel like he'll stick with a pre-season decision of his until his hand is forced. Example, he'd still have Prince 3rd and Braun 4th if they didn't say something. He still has Hall 5th and Hart 6th and says he has no plans to change that. He gives me the impression (JMO) at times that being right is just as important to him as winning, and I find that a little troubling.

[Roscoe Chill]

He gives me the impression (JMO) at times that being right is just as important to him as winning, and I find that a little troubling.

 

Very well put. I agree. And not only that but you can actually tell when Ned knows he's wrong when he acts like a baby during his post game press conference. After last night's game, he was very professional in his press conference, because there wasn't anything he necessarily did that backfired, although I didn't agree that Bush pitched a "great" game...and even Ned corrected himself at the end.

 

Orca, all I have to say to your question is Ted Simmons. I know in the past there have been people out there who have made good points about if Yost were to be shown the door, who is a realistic replacement who could come in. But now, that concern isn't there...his replacement is sitting in the dugout already watching it all go down.

[brewcrew00]

I honestly don't think Simba would take it, he and Ned are very close. I think with this whole situation those two have become a package deal.

[Roscoe Chill]

I'm not sure why you feel that way. Besides when they were teammates over 25 years ago, where is the history between the two?

[And That]

Simmons has stated on a number of occasions that Milwaukee was the only place he would have considered coming back to the bench to and it felt like there was a deal of implicit (as well as some explicit) respect and attachment to Yost. Who knows how much of what he said in those regards was the truth, but it does feel to me like there is some loyalty there.

[Roscoe Chill]

You guys may be right. But last year when Simmons spent three innings or so in the broadcast booth with Brian and Bill, he talked about really how simple baseball is, and decisions that are made, if they don't make sense, there better be a good reason if they don't work out...it almost felt like he was calling our Ned out. He probably wasn't, and maybe didn't even realize some of the questions that were out there last year with some of the decisions made, but it sure sounded like he was talking about the Brewers situation, and it was music to my ears. I even remarked that I would love for this guy to be the Brewers' manager...and a few months later he was named bench coach.

[naivin]

brewcrew00[/b]]That being said, from the camp who supports Yost, which I do fully, it becomes frustrating to see a new thread every day bashing the littlest things the guy does. Or even worse, to take an awesome post game show (1250) and turn it in to a whine fest about the smallest of details, even in games the Brewers win. I do enjoy reading about why people do/don't like Ned, and hope we can continue talking about this, it just gets frustrating when it's the same grinding criticism is the only thing focused on day in and day out.

 

This is pretty much how I feel as well, and why I feel the need to argue about it/defend Yost. In the end I just get the sense its coming from people desperate for the Brewers to be good, or better than they actually are, and looking for easy answers -- something along the lines of, "If Ned wasn't the Manager, we'd be in the playoffs." Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. I think he is a good manager. His moves don't always turn out the way he'd like, but I defy anyone to show me anyone for which that is not the case. I see a team that plays very hard, understands what is expected of them, and do their best to deliver it every night. That shows me they have nothing but respect for Ned. I see a guy who has one goal in mind this year, and that's to win. With all the young players the past several years, that (rightfully) may not always have been the case. But, with that in mind, I also see a team that has developed and gotten progressively better over time. Not sure what more people could ask for.

 

Give him the tools to succeed, and I don't doubt he will. Until perhaps this season, he has not really (or at least not consistently) had those tools. The fact that they have done as well as they have, last year in particular, should be a testament to his abilities, not an indictment.

[Roscoe Chill]

In the end I just get the sense its coming from people desperate for the Brewers to be good, or better than they actually are, and looking for easy answers -- something along the lines of, "If Ned wasn't the Manager, we'd be in the playoffs." Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. I think he is a good manager. His moves don't always turn out the way he'd like, but I defy anyone to show me anyone for which that is not the case. I see a team that plays very hard, understands what is expected of them, and do their best to deliver it every night. That shows me they have nothing but respect for Ned. I see a guy who has one goal in mind this year, and that's to win.

 

I'm not going to try and start a huge argument here, because I'm not to the point RIGHT NOW, where I feel Ned HAS to go. But you know what? If Ned wasn't the manager last year, I honestly feel the Brewers would have made the playoffs. Take it for what it's worth, but that's how I feel. You can't prove it either way, but I don't think you can call me a moron for having that opinion.

 

And as far as the one goal this year, to win...huh? Of course that's his goal. He shouldn't get points for that being his goal. As was pointed out earlier in this thread, I think there are times when being right gets in the way of winning on a Ned Yost led team.

[endaround]

I'm sorry, but Yost cracked last year under pressure. There was all this talk of the young players not handling teh pressure when it was the manager coming unglued getting kicked out of games and starting bean ball wars.

[naivin]

He didn't crack what so ever. He managed with the big picture in mind as he always has. BTW, they didn't miss the playoffs because of any of that stuff with St. Louis. The missed the playoofs because the Cubs were a better team.

 

As far as NDOGG saying he shouldn't get points for winning being his goal. I never said he should. I am simply pointing out that in contrast to previous years, where winning wasn't necessarily as important - again, big picture, it is pretty much the thing that matters this season. The past few years have obviously been a development plan/period from Mark Attanasio on down, and Ned and the team were a part of that. This year however, that stakes have changed. Its playoffs or bust, and barring a bunch of injuries or something, if they don't make it, or I suppose at least come within the final weekend of making it, Ned will likely be gone. He has also been asked to walk a pretty delicate line, than if he were in Chicago, or Boston or New York. The objectives in those places are very simple. Ned on the other hand has been asked to try to win games, but also keep an eye on the overall plan/future. While that may result in decreased pressure overall, it also may make the day to day management/decision making a bit tougher.

[TooLiveBrew]

Wow, I can agree with a lot of things about Yost, but that he didn't crack under the pressure and his juvenile 'mine's bigger' beanball war with LaRussa didn't severely affect the race... no way.

 

 

I couldn't imagine the amount of "worried?" threads there would be if this were Tigerfan.net.

 

What's funny about the Det. situation is that announcers last night were saying, 'Oh, man -- they're still only 3-10!'... when in reality, they started 0-9... shouldn't a 3-1 stretch be comforting? Anyway, I digress...

[Roscoe Chill]

One, the Brewers goal wasn't to win last year? After their start, the state of the division, and any other factor you want to throw in there, if you don't think the Brewers priority number one was to win LAST YEAR, then I really don't know what to tell you. The Cubs weren't necessarily the better team last year. Comparable, yes, but if you don't think the Brewers lost that division more than the Cubs won it, again I don't know what to tell you.

 

Two, the Tigers situation isn't as grave as it could be because their biggest challenger is the Indians who aren't doing a whole lot better. You could flip that division upside down right now and get how it might end up. Either way, Kansas City isn't going to run away with anything, so it's no time to panic just yet with that Tiger team. The Brewers are a whole different story.

 

EDIT: I should say the Brewers are in a whole different situation. I don't want to make it out like we should all be panicking right now. On paper, the Cardinals aren't as good as the Brewers. But for some reason, historically the Brewers can't beat the Cardinals. I remember guys like Eduardo Perez ruining trips to Miller Park for me all the time. So, forget on paper, the Cardinals are obviously (how, I don't know) a factor once again. And these early games aren't any time to be sitting Ryan Braun for one thing.

[endaround]

Ned Yost was not hounded nationally only because while the Brewers collapse was historic, it was not as historic as the Mets flame out. And Yost getting thrown out every other game down the stretch would have gotten him killed most places.

 

As to the big picture, Yost's antics help make Nelson Figeroua look like an ace last Friday.

[LaprilOne]

I enjoyed this recent and ongoing reasoned discussion on Ned. It is much better than the "moron" and "idiot" comments too often bandied about.

 

Managing outcomes are never assured, scientific of certain. As scientific as Tony La Russa is, he has not won a world series every year.

 

At the end of the day, a manger needs great skill, decision ability, strategic sense, tactical expertise, and a large dose of good fortune.

[naivin]

One, the Brewers goal wasn't to win last year? After their start, the state of the division, and any other factor you want to throw in there, if you don't think the Brewers priority number one was to win LAST YEAR, then I really don't know what to tell you. The Cubs weren't necessarily the better team last year. Comparable, yes, but if you don't think the Brewers lost that division more than the Cubs won it, again I don't know what to tell you.

Well, then you don't know what to tell me, because entering the season last year, no way was winning the goal to the extent it was this year. Not even close. Did the Brewers good start, coupled with the Cubs bad start change the stakes? You bet, but don't confuse a 6 week period at the beginning of the season with the Brewers being better than the Cubs. The Cubs were absolutely the better team last year. They won because they had a roster full of veteran players, appreciably better starting pitching, and (as a result) a more dependable bullpen. The Brewers had a roster full of talented inexperienced kids, unproductive veterans, terrible defense, unreliable starting pitching, and (as a result) an unrelieble bullpen. Again the fact that the Brewers finished with virtually the same record should be a testament to Ned Yost, not an indictment. Is Lou Pinellia a good manager?

[naivin]

And Yost getting thrown out every other game down the stretch would have gotten him killed most places.

And the impact on the win column was what? Since this guy is/was the problem with the Brewers, I would think his absence would be a positive.

[naivin]

And these early games aren't any time to be sitting Ryan Braun for one thing.

Having seen nearly all of Ryan's attempts at hitting this young season, I respectfully disagree. Can only help him.

[orca1963]

Orca, all I have to say to your question is Ted Simmons. I know in the past there have been people out there who have made good points about if Yost were to be shown the door, who is a realistic replacement who could come in. But now, that concern isn't there...his replacement is sitting in the dugout already watching it all go down.

 

I have great respect for Simmons, I think a team guided by him would be very fundementally sound which I think is lacking in MLB overall and would translate to a number of wins.

[Roscoe Chill]

Naivin, I will give you that Ben Sheets' absence was probably more of a factor on the Brewers making the post season last year than Ned Yost's influence. But I really don't get how you can say the Cubs were definitely a better team last year. They finished with the better record, but the Brewers were just as good of a team. To me, if you don't think so, I would think you don't expect the Brewers to top the Cubs this year either. And if so, then I guess I get your viewpoint. The age of players means nothing when CLEARLY the best TWO position players on either team were playing for the Brewers and both were playing at an MVP level....TWO guys. The Brewers blew it last year plain and simple.

[naivin]

I'll grant you that the two best position players were playing for the Brewers. However, when their counterparts are Derrik Lee and Aramis Ramirez, the difference is not all that dramatic. If you wanna play that game, you also have to compare Mnchkins to Soriano, Weeks to DeRosa, it works both ways. That point is minimal though. Offesnively teh Brewers were a bit better. Defensively they were worse. The real difference was the pitching. Zambrano obviously, the year Lilly had, Rich Hill was basically good, even Jason Marquis had a decent year, at least by his standards. Compare that to the likes of some Sheets, Suppan, Gallardo, Capuano, Vargas, Bush...Its really not close. When you throw in the bullpens, it only gets worse. The Brewers didn't blow anything. They just didn't have the horses.

As far as this year goes, I actually think the Brewers have a grest shot - for the exact reason stated above, only in the reverse. I think the The Brewers may have the surperior pitching this year. The way I see it, the two teams are pretty evenly matched, and whichever is best able to avoid injury will win the division.

[logan82]

When talking about comparing the Cubs talent to the Brewers talent last year, keep in mind the difference between the Brewers and the Cubs was a walk-off homer by A-Ram.

 

I would say that two teams with pretty much equal talent could easily be up to 3 wins apart in the standings at the end of the year. Nothing scientific about that, just my thoughts.

[Roscoe Chill]

Why you would compare DeRosa and Soriano with Menchkins and Weeks instead of Hart and Hardy, I don't know.

 

And Braun/Fielder hit 36 more home runs than Lee/Ramirez. The difference was not minimal. At least not last year.

[TooLiveBrew]

But Lee's power is back right on schedule (~ 1 yr. after wrist surgery, a la Weeks). He's going to be a lot better this year, imo.