Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[bork]

I'm not a Yost fan, but I'm wondering if people's memories of 1982 aren't coloring their views. Get rid of Buck Rogers and let Harvey Kuenn take over. Everything magically gets better and we go to the world series. I think people expect the same thing to happen by dumping Yost and letting X take over.

[Thurston Fluff]

Most people would realize putting in a pitcher who has suffered through so many health issues that he had to go form starting to closing, at home in a tie game, in cold rainy weather, on a slippery mound is a bad idea as well. That didn't prevent Lou from doing it though did it?

[brewcrew00]

I'm sure he understand platoon splits, and makes his in game decisions based off of the ultimate goal of winning. All managers fail in multiple situations during the course of one season. To think Milwaukee has it any worse than any other team out there is ridiculous.

[Robideaux]

Ok, I'll bite. If he understands platoon splits why did he leave Mench in to hit against a righty?

 

Backupcatcher,

 

That's not an objective right/wrong situation. That's simply a gut feeling. There is no objective right/wrong in that situation. There has to be an alternative that is clearly better (in my mind) to rightly criticize a manager. Otherwise it's simply second-guessing.

[brewcrew00]

I'm not saying I know the exact reasons he does things. Mench, got me on that one. Ned has a tendency to ride hot hands and career numbers of a hitter vs. a pitcher or the other way around. Could have had something to do with the example you gave.

 

I'm simply saying every manager makes moves like the ones that are complained about here, and Ned is NO worse than anybody managing baseball right now. Matter of fact, I'd take him over most.

[Thurston Fluff]

Ok, I'll bite. If he understands platoon splits why did he leave Mench in to hit against a righty?

He made a choice that turned out to be wrong. He went on a hunch that Mench was actually hitting well at that point in time, having good ab's and went with it. Much like we were debating not always going with the career numbers in paticular insatnces yesterday in the IG thread. It failed and they lost one game. For heaven's sake it was one game last year and that's still the biggest gripe some people have. Get over it already. It's a new year, he has a new bench coach, he's shown with his bullpen useage that he has learned from his mistakes to some degree so let it go and give up on that stupid play already. Every manager makes them.

[pitchleague]

I'm not a Yost fan, but I'm wondering if people's memories of 1982 aren't coloring their views. Get rid of Buck Rogers and let Harvey Kuenn take over. Everything magically gets better and we go to the world series. I think people expect the same thing to happen by dumping Yost and letting X take over.

bork, that's what I've been meaning to say for a couple of days now but wasn't sure which thread I should put it in. I don't know if it'd be the right call or not, but I could totally see Kremblas or Ted Simmons (more likely, I'd think) take over the team and tell the players, "just play and have fun" like Kuehn did in '82. Sometimes, giving players "free reign" (for lack of a better term) to just play ball without worrying about repercussions, etc. is what a team needs.

 

Again, I'm not advocating any sort of a switch for quite a while yet. Give it at least another month to month-and-a-half.

[naivin]

bork, that's what I've been meaning to say for a couple of days now but wasn't sure which thread I should put it in. I don't know if it'd be the right call or not, but I could totally see Kremblas or Ted Simmons (more likely, I'd think) take over the team and tell the players, "just play and have fun" like Kuehn did in '82. Sometimes, giving players "free reign" (for lack of a better term) to just play ball without worrying about repercussions, etc. is what a team needs.

Exactly what repercussions are you talking about? What exactly do you think Ypst tells the players, if not play and have fun. He has high expectations for them, as he should, and I assure you the players share those expectations. If ever there was a guy who is willing to give a player time to work through struggles i.e., play and have fun, it's Yost. Sometimes I really wonder what on earth some of you people are talking about.

[pitchleague]

I was, of course, speaking in hypotheticals, in that final sentence.

 

Please stay away from the type of comments made in your final sentence.

[Thurston Fluff]

Sometimes, giving players "free reign" (for lack of a better term) to just play ball without worrying about repercussions, etc. is what a team needs

 

The differance is that team was full of veterans and they made a trade to get that missing piece along the way. This team has too many guys like Braun who have shown they are not ready to just play. I'd sure hate to see a laid back approach with someone who already shows he's not capable of functional plate discipline. I do think the validity of it would be if doug felt Ned's message was being tuned out by the years he spent sort of nurturing the same players he now has to kick in the butt so to speak. I think one of the hardest things a mananger has to do is to change his apporach with the same players as they develope, teamwise, from getting their feet wet to expected to produce. If at some point that transition isn't takin gplace then maybe a switch would be usefull. It's far from that yet though.

[naivin]

Again, I'm not advocating any sort of a switch for quite a while yet. Give it at least another month to month-and-a-half.

Right, at the Brewers current pace (with our best hitters yet to get untracked), the Brewers would be something like 27-17. Definitely calls for a change at the top. Under what circumstances would you say that should take place in a month to a month and a half?. Certainly not anything we have seen this year, so what are you talking about? Comments like yours clearly demonstrate a complete lack of objectivity where Yost is concerned.

[orca1963]

I mentioned it before and no-one bit...if you are going to replace him with who would you do it??? It is one thing to not like the way a manager / player is performing (or not) but you still have to have someone else. I can't think of anyone available to take his place that has credentials and is out of a job. In a fantasy world I would take Larussa. If you want him gone who is your guy?

[Thurston Fluff]

Oh God if LaRussa was our manager I'd have to go the FTJ on Yost route. I hope this team is never managed by an arrogant egomaniac let alone the king of arrogant egomanics.

[brewcrew00]

Oh God if LaRussa was our manager I'd have to go the FTJ on Yost route. I hope this team is never managed by an arrogant egomaniac let alone the king of arrogant egomanics.

Preach on. I can't stand that guy.

[RU Rah Rah]

Davey Johnson, that's who I'd take. But I think it's premature to be revving up the anti-Ned bandwagon (on which I have ridden more than once myself) just yet.

[Robideaux]

For heaven's sake it was one game last year and that's still the biggest gripe some people have. Get over it already.

 

I am over it. If you look back at the larger context of my comments, I began by saying that people should stop blaming Yost simply as a knee-jerk reaction to any loss. I brought up the Mench/Jenkins thing as an example of when (I think) criticism is warrented.

I really don't want to see Ned fired this season. Not because I think that good old Nedly is the cat's pajamas, but because his firing would probably indicate that things are not going well in the standings.

[orca1963]

Oh God if LaRussa was our manager I'd have to go the FTJ on Yost route. I hope this team is never managed by an arrogant egomaniac let alone the king of arrogant egomanics.

 

forgive my ignorance...FTJ?

[Thurston Fluff]

I got a little snippy on that post Robideaux didn't mean anything by it. Mostly due to how sick I am of always hearing that one incident brought up over and over agian. Sorry if it came of a little more harsh than it should have.

 

forgive my ignorance...FTJ?

 

The poster Fatter that Joey. He's one of my favorite posters who I generally disagree with but seem to get along with well.

[TooLiveBrew]

For heaven's sake it was one game last year and that's still the biggest gripe some people have. Get over it already.

 

Well, it's about the most blatant bit of evidence that can be provided on Yost -- representing his tendency to manage based on his 'gut feelings' & hunches. It's not that there's some desperate attempt to bring that non-move up every 3rd day of the week. It's a strong, tangible example, and "just one game"? -- the division ended up being decided by only two games.

 

I don't think "get over it" is a very fair response. So far in this thread, no one's freaked out about it; just offered it as an example.

 

EDIT: Tie goes to the Backupcatchers... I think I'll leave my post as is, just bc I don't think it's inciting anything negative.

[Robideaux]

backupcatchers,

 

No offense taken. We all have a tendency to get a bit demonstrative when it comes to Yost, regardless of what side of the fence we may be standing on.

[orca1963]

The poster Fatter that Joey. He's one of my favorite posters who I generally disagree with but seem to get along with well.

got it...thanks for the edumication...i still like tony though

[Thurston Fluff]

It's a strong, tangible example, and "just one game"? -- the division ended up being decided by only two games.

 

While this is true there are hundreds of moments that cost one game throughout the year yet each one individually does not seem to get brought up in the same proportion as his mistake on that day. Had each batter taken a better approach at the plate once it would have meant more than that one game. If each player made one less error that would have been a much larger differance than all Yost decisions combined. Melvin making a better move during the season than Linebrink, who came to the Brewers overworked and already faultering in a very pitcher freindly park, would have had more of an impact. Quite frankly the players are the ones who never seemed to make any move Ned made look good. Sometimes the players should be expected to bail out the manager not always the other way around. Last year I didn't see the players do mcuh to make Ned's job easier. It's a lot easier to look stupid if you rplayers never make you look smart.

[TooLiveBrew]

While this is true there are hundreds of moments that cost one game throughout the year yet each one individually does not seem to get brought up in the same proportion as his mistake on that day.

 

Yes -- very true. It certainly stands out as a memorable mistake, though. And one can't really call it 'hindsight' or that the player simply made Yost look bad. Nearly everyone watching that game (TV, @ Wrigley) knew what the better move was except Yost. I know for certain that nearly 100% of the posters here who had a problem with that decision were sitting there, talking/yelling at their TV about Mench still being in the on-deck circle... then walking up to the plate... ugh. Vomit.

 

But I don't want to take away from your excellent larger point -- that there are so many mistakes/successes throughout a 162-game season, that you can't look at one play/decision in particular & pin everything on that. This play in terms of Yost just happens to be the strongest example of what, precisely, I dislike about him.

[pitchleague]

please note that I said that I am not advocating a change. In a month to month-and-a-half, I would reassess my position toward Mr. Yost. Personally, I like the guy and hope he stays on. But, and here's the big thing for me, IF things go sour (I'm not saying they are going to), I'd like to start thinking of a change if I'm the GM (which I am not). But this is just my opinion.

 

Comments like yours clearly demonstrate a complete lack of objectivity where Yost is concerned.

 

I do wish the condescension would stop. I have stated that I like the guy and hope he does well. I don't hate him, nor do I ever bash him. But I did state in a hypothetical case (such as we don't stay on a .625 winning pct. pace) that I would like to see some action. I agree that at this time we are playing fine and it's much too early to do anything about anything.

[TooLiveBrew]

I do wish the condescension would stop

 

This, imo, is a really important point in general on the Yost discussions. I, for one, really enjoy discussing the manager's impact objectively, as I feel I learn quite a bit in doing so. Unfortunately, the passions that Robideaux mentioned have more & more stood in the way of actually discussing things in an attempt to learn -- and I've been as guilty as anyone when it comes to emotions on Yost. The condescension is a complete roadblock to having any kind of constructive conversation, & I really hope it can come to an end.