Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[endaround]

So Yost shouldn't be smart because he might get criticized anyway? It wasn't just a hit, it was a home run. Followed by a double. For three hits in a row with Villanueva missing high.

[joepepsi]

My beef is that Yost let CV give up 5 straight hits. Even if a starter is cruising, if it's not Sheets, you pretty much should have someone at least stretching in the 7th just in case. 5 hits without an out is inexcusable. Regardless of how he was doing before, clearly the wheels have fallen off at that point.

Villy hadn't thrown many pitches after 6, so I appreciate it was a tough decision whether to pull him or put him back out in the 7th. However, he didn't pitch particularly well in the 6th. It was clear to me the Reds' bats were catching on by the 5th inning. His margin of error was so slight and he just wasn't as dominating as he'd been earlier in the game. I can understand wanting CV to get through the 7th, but he should have been on a short leash. Someone should have been warming up in the 6th, ready to go in at anytime.

 

Ned didn't lose this game, but he did get caught unprepared in the 7th. That was inexcusable.

 

[giffted1]

Villaneuva was entering the inning at 78 pitches. Pitchers start to falter at 80 usually. You have to be aware and getting players ready.

 

So what happens then if Yost takes CV out after the first hit or two and the relief pitcher gives up runs? Is that still Yost's fault then?

Of course it's Yost's fault. And if Yost has someone warming and Villy gets out of the inning, its Yost's fault for unnecessarily warming someone up. Don't you get it? Everything bad that happens to the Brewers is Yost's fault.

Shoot, I got mustard on my pants at the game...Yosted again.

 

[jhart05]

I mentioned this in another thread but I don't have a problem with today's game at all. A little bloop single, a HR, a solid hit and then he faced Bako and Harang who he should be able to get out even if he is 'tired'.

 

What he said.

 

 

P.S. I just heard a short interview with Villy. He said he wasn't tired, the Reds were just hitting the ball.

[jazzytrav]

You have to consider how long it takes to get someone ready in the pen too. As soon as Encarnacion hit his bomb, there was a mad scramble in the pen.

That's why, as TC said, you should already have someone up in the 7th. Just because he's not struggling yet doesn't mean you can't get someone up throwing just in case.

 

There's no reason you can't have someone up stretching before the 7th in any game. If the starter struggles, they're that much more ready to go and can probably be warm 1 or 2 batters sooner than if they just got up when the starter started struggling.

[TooLiveBrew]

Don't you get it? Everything bad that happens to the Brewers is Yost's fault.

 

Hooray constructive discussion. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif

 

It's just so trivializing and easy to make this kind of 'argument'. You know, most of the thoughtful Yost critics I know here are way more than willing to have an objective discussion about the 'whys', but for whatever reason most times it devolves into this crud.

[Team Canada]

Of course it's Yost's fault. And if Yost has someone warming and Villy gets out of the inning, its Yost's fault for unnecessarily warming someone up. Don't you get it? Everything bad that happens to the Brewers is Yost's fault.

Shoot, I got mustard on my pants at the game...Yosted again.

 

That's a ridiculous straw man. No one's going to criticize Yost about having someone warm up. The times our pitchers go less than 7 innings is going to be far more than the number of times they go 8 or 9, so it's simply being prepared for a likely eventuality.

[rotoherb]

The whole "five hits in a row" thing seems way over the top to me. One was a check swing and the last two were ground balls that are outs probably 80% of the time. Heck, Bako's ground ball was so weak that it barely made it out to Hart in right field. Griffey's double play ball was hit harder than either of the last two hits. Villanueva wasn't getting behind in the count and he didn't appear to be laboring so I don't really have a problem with Yost not pulling him because Encarnacion guessed correctly on a first pitch curve ball.

 

If people want to get upset with something about yesterday's game then get upset about not drawing a single walk the whole game and only two in the entire three game series. The Brewers are dead last in the majors in walks at just 17 and two of those were intentional. Yost's managerial decisions will have much less of an effect on the season than the Brewers' ability to get on base.

[joepepsi]

Point taken rotoherb. Braun hasn't drawn a single walk yet. Raise your hand if, like me, you suspect his swing happy attitude is affecting the pitches Prince sees.

[Fatter than Joey]

Is that still Yost's fault then?

 

It's about maximizing your chances to win not bashing Ned Yost. -- I've noticed and documented a trend that suggests that Ned leaves his starters in WAY too long. People seem hung up on pitch count, when in reality Ned should be watching the pitchers more. Guys like Dave Bush, are going to crap out at 70 pitches sometimes. The crazy thing is -- for example the last game Bush pitched -- Bush was left in to hit for himself, after getting out of a jam in the previous inning -- he gets ran around the bases -- Yost brings him in to pitch the 6th -- he gets clubbed around, getting only one out -- and the BP ends up pitching that inning anyway. If your SP is on the ropes -- more likely than not, the BP is going to have to finish the inning anyway -- they may as well pitch the whole inning.

 

Yost's managerial decisions will have much less of an effect on the season than the Brewers' ability to get on base.

 

So? Italy had less of an effect than Germany in WWII, -- it doesn't mean they didn't need to be addressed.

[giffted1]

That's a ridiculous straw man. No one's going to criticize Yost about having someone warm up. The times our pitchers go less than 7 innings is going to be far more than the number of times they go 8 or 9, so it's simply being prepared for a likely eventuality.

I'm almost certain that Ned has been criticized for unnecessarily warming up pitchers in the past. Yes our starters normally don't make it past the 6th inning, but Villanueva had cruised through 6 innings and his pitch count wasn't a problem. Just looking at the IGT, no one was saying that Ned should have someone warming in the pen at the start of the 7th inning. Only after Villy started giving up hits were there people wondering why no one was ready in the pen. Hindsight is the critic's best friend.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'm almost certain that Ned has been criticized for unnecessarily warming up pitchers in the past.

 

We really need to get past arguments that take something that might be said in the community here at large, and then pin it on on specific poster.

 

If a specific poster says "Ned screwed up because he did XYZ" -- we shouldn't be saying that some other poster somewhere is going to be mad if Ned did the opposite of XYZ.

[whynotthebrewers]

hat's a ridiculous straw man. No one's going to criticize Yost about having someone warm up.

I know you were around last year so if you look back (or remember) there are certainly times that people complained that Yost warmed guys up for no reason. Mainly Wise, who didn't have the best of arms on back to back days. So when we lose, Yost bashers do use both of these and either way they are correct. I really can't believe there is a debate over yesterday. Villy had 70 pitches through 6 and was on a 2 hitter. The argument of having someone warming up is just not there. They got ready after the bomb and that is exactly when they should of.

[TooLiveBrew]

So when we lose, Yost bashers do use both of these and either way they are correct.

From now on when you make comments like these, please provide who you're describing. My biggest complaint about being called a 'Yost critic' -- with which I do not inherently disagree -- is that I get lumped in with this supposed huge collective of people who only criticize him, and make sure to set themselves up with an out in either direction.

 

I'm sure I'm regarded as a critic of Yost, but I also have defended him on numerous occasions. I strive to be objective, and statements that lump people all together in one coveniently obnoxious group don't do anything to further actual analysis. I think with almost any controversial Yost decision, you have people who dislike aspect A, others that dislike aspect B, those that hate both A & B, etc. This, imho, leads to comments like, "Yost bashers just want him to fail, so they make sure they cherry-pick anything he does wrong"... which is wholly incorrect imo.

 

The biggest thing to keep in mind is that it's not that bashing Yost is cool, therefore lots of people do it. It's that Yost makes so many questionable/poor/non-most-likely-to-succeed decisions that there has been a lot of Yost bashing. I just think lots of people have the causality flipped around.

[Fatter than Joey]

So when we lose, Yost bashers do use both of these and either way they are correct.

 

Collectively perhaps -- but you couldn't pin it on one poster -- which is what you insist on doing.

 

Villy had 70 pitches through 6 and was on a 2 hitter. The argument of having someone warming up is just not there. They got ready after the bomb and that is exactly when they should of.

 

Villy was in a jam in the 5th, and was likely to bat in the next inning -- I dont think it was the worst thing ever, but Yost should have someone getting ready at the beginning of the 6th, as there was little chance Villy would be pitching in the 7th.

[whynotthebrewers]

Little chance of him pitching the 7th with a two hitter and a low pitch count. If someone warms up with these stats, we will have someone warming up starting the 5th every game. This is exactly what I was talking about when I say Yost can do nothing right. That is a bad example of what should of been done and that should be clear but I guess not.

[giffted1]

Villy was in a jam in the 5th, and was likely to bat in the next inning -- I dont think it was the worst thing ever, but Yost should have someone getting ready at the beginning of the 6th, as there was little chance Villy would be pitching in the 7th.

If this strategy was implemented our pen would be cashed by the all-star break.

[Fatter than Joey]

Little chance of him pitching the 7th with a two hitter and a low pitch count.

 

Yep -- It was a 1-1 game with his spot likely to be up in the 7th. He lucked out of a jam in the 5th, and had walked 3 batters in the last 2 innings. I get the impression you didn't watch the game. Villy was not as effective.

 

This is exactly what I was talking about when I say Yost can do nothing right.

 

When you say "Yost can do nothing right" -- you always take a very specific argument made by one poster, and proceed to apply inaccurate generalizations that may be have been made by an entirely different poster -- but in all likelihood it's a fabrication on your part.

 

That is a bad example of what should of been done and that should be clear but I guess not.

 

I think Yost should have had someone warming earlier -- I realize not everyone holds that POV. I certainly think it is debatable.

[TooLiveBrew]

This is exactly what I was talking about when I say Yost can do nothing right.

 

This is the kind of attitude that detracts from debating Yost -- an 'I told you ya'lls just some haters' approach that seeks to find the instances in which Yost was unfairly blamed. Certainly from both sides there's unfair blame/praise, but to just seek out these instances, and then go, 'See? This is why I'm right' just takes away from objective analysis.

 

A manager can be right & wrong... doesn't have to be one or the other.

 

 

When you say "Yost can do nothing right" -- you always take a very specific argument made by one poster, and proceed to apply inaccurate generalizations that may be have been made by an entirely different poster

Bingo.

[Fatter than Joey]

If this strategy was implemented our pen would be cashed by the all-star break.

 

Then Yost AND Melvin should be fired.

[whynotthebrewers]

Ok as was pointed out before. If Yost does this we will have a pitcher warming up starting the 5th every game if two hits and 70 pitches is the key to getting someone ready. I watched the game as well and was not looking for the bullpen to come into the game. The 6th was a ground out, ground out, BB and a K so I don't know how you saw that as reason to get someone ready. I am totatlly baffled and confused as to how this is even an argument.

[Fatter than Joey]

I am totatlly baffled and confused as to how this is even an argument.

 

Think past your predetermined conclusions.

 

If Yost does this we will have a pitcher warming up starting the 5th every game if two hits and 70 pitches is the key to getting someone ready

 

Sigh. If every game is a 1-1 tie and the pitchers spot is coming up -- I'm fine with it. Pitchers like Villy start to decline at 75 pitches

[whynotthebrewers]

I am totatlly baffled and confused as to how this is even an argument.

 

Think past your predetermined conclusions.

 

If Yost does this we will have a pitcher warming up starting the 5th every game if two hits and 70 pitches is the key to getting someone ready

 

Sigh. If every game is a 1-1 tie and the pitchers spot is coming up -- I'm fine with it. Pitchers like Villy start to decline at 75 pitches

 

Live outside of the world of hindsight 20-20. It's an easy world to live in and fans who do this always have the right answer.

[TooLiveBrew]

Seriously, give this stuff up. FtJ is very forward about his concerns re. Yost, and the vast majority of the time they are not reactionary.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Ned should be watching the pitchers more. Guys like Dave Bush, are going to crap out at 70 pitches sometimes. The crazy thing is -- for example the last game Bush pitched -- Bush was left in to hit for himself, after getting out of a jam in the previous inning -- he gets ran around the bases -- Yost brings him in to pitch the 6th -- he gets clubbed around, getting only one out -- and the BP ends up pitching that inning anyway. If your SP is on the ropes -- more likely than not, the BP is going to have to finish the inning anyway -- they may as well pitch the whole inning. "

 

VERY well said, FTJ.

 

I may be willing to nominate yesterday's loss as Ned's FIRST in a series of game-costing managerial blunders of the season. I'm amazed at how damned often Ned trots out the SP to bat for himself, when he's on the ropes, late enough in the game.

 

However....as long as Doug keeps giving Ned starting pitchers who keep crapping out after 5 innings, we may as well have 8 men in the batting order, Counsell doing his Cesar Tovar/Bert Campaneris impersonation playing every defensive position, and 11 men in the pen.

 

I REALLY didn't want Ned to be covertly retained by Doug, this past winter. But I'm just sick and tired of our SPs (aside from Benny of course) not being able to last into the 7th and beyond. Perhaps that's why Shousie is a luxury, inthat, as a LOOGY, he takes up 1 roster spot, but can't be depended on for multiple innings in relief....'cause apparently we'll need pretty much every reliever to put in 80 innings-plus this season.