Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[Bring Back the Stein]

I didn't have the guts to start this as a separate thread, but does anyone have an up-to-date sense of what Simba has been thinking about the bullpen goings-on? He's too savvy to say anything on-the-record, but are there heaving sighs visible from the bench? Pursed dirty-diaper-smell lips?

[BrewCrewForever]

Seriously.....Yost has reached the point of "indefensible". That was not the place to put Turnbow in......period. Warming up Gagne for the Ninth if necessary......my god.

 

He is just plain dumb.....he's not a smart man. I'd like to have someone try to combat that statement.

I think Yost has a ego. He always makes moves that seem bone headed because he wants to prove people wrong and show that he is right. It isn't working very well though.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

Yost scans 25 man roster which consists of a record 14 pitchers and says "this looks like a great spot to get turbow some work".

 

Yost scans the roster and sees one pitcher who is injured taking up a spot. He sees another long man with an erratic past whose best role on the team is in mopup duty. He sees three pitchers he's used early and often, many times going mulitiple innings, that he'd probably like to have in August and September, he sees a closer in a tie game who has been used four days in a row. He sees a very effective 39 year old loogy who has been used quite a bit so far. He sees a rookie lefty and a former all star closer turned setup man last year who, when used to start an inning has been effective, and was unscored upon 80.5% of the time last year. So, yes, it was a great time to see if he's good enough to help this team in anything but a blowout. In fact I'd argue an April game at home is the perfect time to see if he ahs any real value to the team at all. If he fails then the team still has a chance to come back in the bottom half of the inning. If not then when?

[Greg Vaughn]

if all you said in your paragraph were true...then you'd be right.

He had Gagne warming in the eighth, ready to go in the ninth if we take the lead. (Yeah....let's use him for a 5th consecutive day)

He had Riske warming in the ninth ready to pitch the tenth.

If you honestly think using Turnbow in a tie game in the 9th was a good move by Yost....then there is obviously no help for you.

[gfwisco]

 

 

If you honestly think using Turnbow in a tie game in the 9th was a good move by Yost....then there is obviously no help for you.

It turned out to be a bad move because of the run but to make the decision originally, I can't call it that. Melvin has Turnbow on the roster and if you're never going to pitch him, why waste the roster spot? Every game they seem to be playing is tied or within a run in the ninth. He has to be used sometime or you'll kill the other guys. I guess since I don't agree exactly with what you say, there is obviously no help for me. I will watch for what to think. Thank you.

[naivin]

Just a couple of observations after today. Riske was awful. He still probably would have been preferable to Turnbow yesterday, but I guess it just goes to show you. Using him yesterday was is nowhere near the slam dunk so many here would like to believe it was. Also, Gagne blew yet another save, and I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure he didn't pitch yesterday, so perhaps his stuggles are a function of the pitcher as much or more than the pitchers rest.

 

I still question those moves, but hindsight works both ways. Blame the manager is quick and easy and allows one to ignore the possible reality that your team simply may not be as good as you would like them to be, but its typically misguided.

 

I guess since last night's loss was on Ned, that means today's win is on Ned. Great job Skip!

[wisconsinfan47]

Also, Gagne blew yet another save, and I'm no expert, but I'm reasonably sure he didn't pitch yesterday, so perhaps his stuggles are a function of the pitcher as much or more than the pitchers rest.

Gagne was actually warming up last night...What's disturbing about this is that Ned was willing (or at least ready) to use him 5 days in a row. You can't have your injury prone 10 million dollar man put so much stress on his arm this early (or ever, really).

 

Let's also consider that it's been almost a week since Gagne got a day off. I'm not saying he's perfect when fresh, but I doubt Gagne was anywhere close to rested today. He's needed time off since the Saturday win, and he hasn't been getting it.

 

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[brewcrew00]

Either way it's irrelevant if Rickie could get a ball up on a DP (which I know you can't assume, but still).

[glassjawed]

I am generally happy with how Yost has maneuvered a short bench, but still question his use of the bullpen. What I have a hard time stomaching is his post game interviews. He comes off as a real jerk. Today, he was asked about Gross being a lightning rod. He obviously will stand up for his players, but the tone he carried was borderline obnoxious. I saw the same side of him the night Sheets was pulled early. Too much pressure? I love how he backs his squad, but could a blowup be far away?

[TooLiveBrew]

Some positive traits of Ned Yost, in no particular order:

 

Patience

Not much 'small ball' baggage (limits SB attempts, h-&-r, bunting)

Has been good with young arms (just mo)

Able to gameplan well

 

 

Just trying to think of some.

[RU Rah Rah]

Must . . . resist urge . . . .to finally add . . . .signature line . . .

 

"I feel at times people are hard on [Turnbow]," Yost said. "But I have faith in him, and as long as I have faith, he doesn't have to worry about nothing."

[Thurston Fluff]

I thought I'd see all kinds of posts berating Yost for using Turnbow in a save situation yesterday. The reason I'm posting is because I wanted to point out one of the strong suits of Ned which can be pointed out in the use of Turnbow both during the bad and the good. In the past week he was given a chance to play in important spots of two game. He has both succeeded and failed. The point isn't so much the success or failure in either situation rather it's that Ned will allow his players the chance to prove themselves one way or the other early enough in the season to demsonstrate what they will do for the team later in the year. It would have been very easy to bury Turnbow on the bench using him only in mop up. If he did that nobody complains and Turnbow just leaves town at the end of the year. If he uses him like he has this past week, a couple times in tight games, Turnbow may correct a few things, get a little confidence and be a useful part of the team later in the season. The only way to get Turnbow going is to use him on occasion in those spots to see how he will repsond to the situation. Once would not have been enough. Twice really isn't either. He will be given a few chances to show he can still be a major contributer and he should. Over the course of a long season I believe a good manager has to challenge all his players to show they can be productive. Now I know the arguement is it cost the team games and if we lose by one game the one Turnbow blew was that game. While true enough it does not take into account how many games might be won later on if Turnbow can straighten himself out and ease the load on the other relievers. I do not believe Ned uses player he does not think are talented enough to actually play the game at this level. I just think he understands teams don't really win more games over the course of 162 burying potentially usefull players for a bad stretch of games.

[BrewCrewForever]

If we had a rested bullpen and he used Turnbow yesterday then I would have been upset. But Ned really had no choice, Derrick was by far the most fresh and he went with him. Even if it didn't pay off I'm not sure how upset I could be since there were not really any other options unless you want to use a guy who has thrown a lot lately.

 

But I to do hate his post game press conferences. He always sounds like a condecending jerk.

[Thurston Fluff]

But I to do hate his post game press conferences. He always sounds like a condecending jerk.

 

I won't argue about that but as someone who, as a coach, knew I was kind of a jerk at times I can't throw stones. Competition made me irritable and combative which was good for some things as a caoch but quite frankly I was not a good person in those moments. So maybe as a condecenidng jerk in the competetive arena myself I'm more inclined to overlook it in others who share that ignominious trait.

[Fatter than Joey]

If we had a rested bullpen and he used Turnbow yesterday then I would have been upset. But Ned really had no choice,

 

Yeah -- I wasn't upset when Ned brought in Tbow -- you knew it was going to happen. I'd rather Tbow struggle than Gagne get warmed up for his 23rd consecutive day. I won't give Ned credit for bringing in Tbow, I wouldn't have ripped him either.

 

The one thing I will give him credit for -- was having Shouse ready to go to face the Phillies LHers had Tbow got into big trouble.

 

The thing I didn't understand was not PHing Bush in the 6th with a runner on 1b and not having the lead -- only to take Bush out in the following inning after facing one batter.

[jhart05]

With the number of people who were booing this move last night, I thought I'd see something here about not pinch hitting for Bush in the 6th then only letting him face one batter in the 7th.

 

Glad to be at a place where some understand why they had no choice in that situation.

 

I really wanted to explain what was going on to the idiot in front of me last night, but he was with his kid, so I just let it go. This guy was something else thou. Calling Yost and Melvin idiots all game long. He was even facing the press box while yelling his "comments", yeah buddy, I'm sure DM can hear you from Sec 128.

[brewcrew00]

The thing I didn't understand was not PHing Bush in the 6th with a runner on 1b and not having the lead -- only to take Bush out in the following inning after facing one batter.

Only right handed bat in the dugout last night was Rivera, and you especially can't go with your backup catcher that early in the game. Lead off hitter of the next inning for the Phils was a right handed hitter, so he was thinking Bush had a better chance against him than Stetter. Then Philly went Lefty, Righty, Lefty for Stetter. That's how I saw it anyway.

[Bruce Ciskie]

For all Ned's faults, I'll never criticize the guy for being gutless...or for too quickly giving up on a player. That doesn't seem to be a problem.

 

Turnbow really stepped up last night and came through. I hope that's a jolt of confidence for him.

[Fatter than Joey]

Glad to be at a place where some understand why they had no choice in that situation.

 

I disagree. Counsell has pretty even splits against RHers and LHers, -- as much as Counsell is a PHing solution -- it's not as if he has extreme splits (like Gross). Counsell PHing would have been better than letting Bush hit and then giving up the 2b to Werth in the 7th

 

Only right handed bat in the dugout last night was Rivera, and you especially can't go with your backup catcher that early in the game.

 

I don't agree here either. As I mentioned before Counsell is pretty similar against RHP or LHP, and would have been an upgrade over Bush, and Yost is pretty ridiculous about not playing his backup catcher.

 

Stetter ended up pitching 2 innings, so it is not as if the pitching matchups were that critical.

[brewcrew00]

Even still, why burn Counsell and only have one bat on the bench you can go to in the 6th inning? With a tired bullpen, in a tight game, he had to keep both available position players free for later in the game. You can't burn through everyone by the 6th inning.

[JJHardy7]

I disagree. Counsell has pretty even splits against RHers and LHers, -- as much as Counsell is a PHing solution -- it's not as if he has extreme splits (like Gross). Counsell PHing would have been better than letting Bush hit and then giving up the 2b to Werth in the 7th

 

I think it's a different story if it's Hart or Weeks at first base or for that matter someone with more speed than JJ. Even if Counsell gets a hit it'd take a deep double to score JJ. That's the way I see it. The only way Counsell works is if he gets a deep double or if Kendall gets a hit. I think at that point it was a good choice, but I can see both sides.

[Fatter than Joey]

You can't burn through everyone by the 6th inning.

 

Using Rivera or Counsell to hit there is not "burning through everyone".

 

I understand the ridiculous nature of having 14 pitchers on a roster, which makes it hard for Yost to use PHers, but he could have used Counsell there to PH for sure.

 

He definitely had choices. If Bush had been pitching well, I would understand leaving him in -- but with runners on base, letting Bush hit was silly. (IMO)

[endaround]

Because there was no way the pitcher spot was likely to come up twice more anyway.

[jhart05]

I disagree. Counsell has pretty even splits against RHers and LHers, -- as much as Counsell is a PHing solution -- it's not as if he has extreme splits (like Gross). Counsell PHing would have been better than letting Bush hit and then giving up the 2b to Werth in the 7th

 

I think it's a different story if it's Hart or Weeks at first base or for that matter someone with more speed than JJ. Even if Counsell gets a hit it'd take a deep double to score JJ. That's the way I see it. The only way Counsell works is if he gets a deep double or if Kendall gets a hit. I think at that point it was a good choice, but I can see both sides.

Yes. Plus Hamels was pitching extremely well at the time. You would have needed three hits in a row to get a run. Not good odds.

 

 

[BrewCrewForever]

The only person I would have used there to pinch hit would have been Gallardo.