Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I think it was a conspiracy that Brett Favre always wanted to play and that even though he was greatly injured and tired, he shouldn't have been out on the field.

 

Point being that it's a good thing that Gagne wanted to be out there. It's not a bad thing or some proclaimed conspiracy.

[Glennron]

Simply because Gagne gave the "okay" doesn't mean that he was the best option in that situation. Unless Gagne's arm was just short of falling off, I would almost hope he'd say he's ready to go. I'm sure he's anxious to get saves and prove he's worth 10 million dollars, so why would he say no. This might be off, but it reminded me of when players are injured and then try to convince the trainer/manager/etc. that they're ready to play even though they probably won't be 100% effective.

I think it was a conspiracy that Brett Favre always wanted to play and that even though he was greatly injured and tired, he shouldn't have been out on the field.

After TLB said "conspiracy" he added that it was in jest, so I'm not really sure what mocking him adds to the conversation. Also, an injured Brett Favre was clearly the best option compared to the alternatives. In this instance, Gagne was not clearly the best option. The comparison doesn't hold any water.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"The great part about this is that Yost probably won't trot Gagne out there 4 straight days anymore."

 

You can't say this with any degree of certainty, Tuesdays.

 

Recent history showed that Gagne, especially post-HGH-Gagne, hasn't been used even THREE days in a row, in years, but The Book says "on the road, in a save situation, thou must sendeth thy closer out there to add to his save total." And Ned played it by The Book. Hell, if the situation called for it tonight, and Gagne got the save yesterday, Ned would use him again. And Tuesday, until his arm falls off, because The Book says so.

 

"That's what makes him a good manager. He learns from his mistakes"

 

Can't agree. The only time when it appears Ned has "learned" from his mistakes, is when the perilous situation is removed from him. When Doug brought in Russell Branyan, Wes Helms was still playing 3rd and 1st... a LOT more often than he should. Ned believes Gagne can pitch every day...and that Brady Clark could steal bases and even hit cleanup. Doug often has to remove these sharp objects from Ned's crib. He had to DFA Obermueller & Helms, trade Clark...all because Ned will keep using players he prefers, in roles they're not suited for.

 

"I do agree with that but the problem was that we didn't have a "non-tired" Gagne. I still think a tired Gagne throwing it 91 mph was a better option than a non-tired Riske throwing it 87 mph and Ned Yost seemed to agree with me."

 

Why does the speed make a difference? If more MPH = better pitcher, then Turnbow would still be effective, and guys like Jamie Moyer and Tim Wakefield would never reach the majors.

 

Aren't your options more attractive if you have a better-rested, effective Riske, over an obviously overwhelmed Gagne? It should come down to the more effective pitcher, that day, right?

 

On my list of 2008 Games Ned Cost the Brewers, this game is definitely #1 in a series of perhaps 7 or 8 by the time the season's over. We lost a shot at a playoff berth by 2 lousy games last year. There are, what?, 27 pitchers on our roster right now? We were told that a deeper pen, with so many closer options will make the difference in 2008. But what does Ned do? He goes to the same guy, coming off both injuries and HGH, 4 damned games in a row!

[bigredrobbo]

Hey, Geno, just for the sake of fairness, why doncha start a list of games where a managerial decision WON us the game, or does that not fit with the agenda?

 

And Jazzytrav, you mentioned that I "obviously" hadn't researched a previous post then pull a number out your ass like Ned is the difference between 88 and 100 wins. Hmmmm......

 

Maybe it should be noted on this board that someone's conflicting opinion need not necessarily make it right. I'm just sayin'.

[TooLiveBrew]

After TLB said "conspiracy" he added that it was in jest

 

You actually read entire posts? What a waste of time.

 

 

Point being that it's a good thing that Gagne wanted to be out there. It's not a bad thing or some proclaimed conspiracy.

 

Yes, it's a great thing that Gagne wanted to be out there. However, there's more than 'the win' at play (meaning, a shot at a save), and when a player wants to be on the field, he's not going to tell the coach anything but, "I'm ready to go!" Many SPs give their coaches the death glare when it comes time to make the move to the pen. The SP clearly wants to still be out there, and will tell the coach, 'No -- I'm fine, let me finish the inning/game/batter.' This has nothing to do with how effective or ineffective he's going to be; it's just the pitcher lobbying to stay in. The judgment of likelihood of effectiveness falls at the feet of the manager.

[jazzytrav]

And Jazzytrav, you mentioned that I "obviously" hadn't researched a previous post then pull a number out your ass like Ned is the difference between 88 and 100 wins. Hmmmm......

The difference is that what I said is my opinion and I stated it as such. It cannot be proven to be right or wrong, but it's how I feel. Your statement about hindsight is 100% wrong and it can be proven by simply looking at the IGT.

[Fatter than Joey]

The great part about this is that Yost probably won't trot Gagne out there 4 straight days anymore.

 

This reminds me of a time when I was 13 years old, and I was golfing with a friend. The seventh hole ran along side a country road, which separated the golf course from a field that was surrounded by an electric fence.

 

My buddy and I both yanked our tee-shots off across the road into the field. We were in the very tall grass looking for our golf balls, and we both decided to take a whiz, since we were far from the clubhouse. My friend wondered out loud if the electric fence was on, so we could go over the fence and into the field to retrieve our balls. I suggested that we should just assume it was on, however he thought it would be best to test if the fence was on by "crossing streams" sort of like in Ghostbusters. I opted out of the testing phase, but my friend decided to proceed forward. Long story short, fence was on, golf balls were lost.

 

I'm glad Ned learned not to pee on the fence any more, a better manager probably would have known from the start nothing good would happen by embarking on that endeavor.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Good Analogy, FTJ. Managers do learn just like 13 year olds do. You were obviously way ahead of your years. Thanks for sharing.

[strawbossisevil]

Ok, I tend to be a Yost apologist. But seriously, both sides need to relax on this one. It's getting way to personal and way to heated on both sides.

 

We get it, some liked the move last night, or didn't see it as terrible.

 

Some saw it as terrible and unnecessary.

 

I don't think anyone is changing anyone else's mind at this point.

 

Maybe we can put off the argument until the next mistake later this evening?

[jazzytrav]

Maybe we can put off the argument until the next mistake later this evening?

Line of the year so far http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Hey, Geno, just for the sake of fairness, why doncha start a list of games where a managerial decision WON us the game, or does that not fit with the agenda? "

 

Fair enough, Robbo.

 

Cite specific examples, and I'll be glad to award Ned some plus points in the ledger.

[endaround]

"Hey, Geno, just for the sake of fairness, why doncha start a list of games where a managerial decision WON us the game, or does that not fit with the agenda? "

 

Fair enough, Robbo.

 

Cite specific examples, and I'll be glad to award Ned some plus points in the ledger.

Come on Geno, what about all those times he decided to pitch Sheets instead of Counsell? I suppose you won't give him any credit for that huh?

 

[logan82]

It is impossible to make a list of things any manager does right since when they make a right decision they should have done it in the first place. It is only possible to point out questionable or wrong decisions.

 

Pitching Gagne for a 4th day in a row was certainly questionable. However, we still don't know what we have in Gagne. He hasn't exactly been unhittable so far so for all we know Sunday was what we should expect from time to time even with rest.

[naivin]

I believe Yost is the difference between 100 wins and 88 wins.

Absolutley laughable. What other Managers, good or bad do you believe account for a 12 game difference?

[TooLiveBrew]

Ditka, & inverse-Ditka.

[logan82]

Don't forget mini Ditka.

[TooLiveBrew]

My gad, how cud I fergit?

[bklynbrewcrew]

For those that thought Yost might learn a lesson and not pitch Gagne 4 days in a row how do you feel now knowing that he was gonna use Gagne for a 5th straight day if the Brewers had scored to take the lead in the eighth. Face it a dope like Yost will never learn.

[trwi7]

Face it a dope like Yost will never learn.

 

I hate to say it because Yost was doing fine early in the season but this is becoming a disturbing reality. And it really sucks.

[DougJones43]

For those that thought Yost might learn a lesson and not pitch Gagne 4 days in a row how do you feel now knowing that he was gonna use Gagne for a 5th straight day if the Brewers had scored to take the lead in the eighth. Face it a dope like Yost will never learn.

I missed the end of the game. Was Gagne actually warming up for the potential **SAVE SITUATION!!!** in the 9th? Wow. At this rate, Gagne's fastball will top out at around 78-79 mph in early May, before his arm falls completely off and he needs to start pitching with his foot to earn more saves.

[adambr2]

Is it just me, or are the Brewers paying JSOnline to give the company line on questions regarding Ned Yost?

 

It's not even worth questioning Yost whatsoever in their mailbag, much less debating whether he should be replaced. They'll bluntly act like his job security is as good as ever, regardless of what might be happening in the games, and move onto the next question.

[Roscoe Chill]

If he was going to pitch Gagne again (I didn't catch tonight's game), then he'd rather be right than win.

[trwi7]

I missed the end of the game. Was Gagne actually warming up for the potential **SAVE SITUATION!!!** in the 9th? Wow. At this rate, Gagne's fastball will top out at around 78-79 mph in early May, before his arm falls completely off and he needs to start pitching with his foot to earn more saves.

 

Yes Trenni said something in the 5th or 6th inning that Yost said he would use Gagné if there was a save situation so when Hart was on 3rd with one out in the 9th and Hall up they showed Gagné warming up. Someone actually posed the question in the game thread when Gagné would go on the DL because of this. He said July 1st, I said May 6th.

 

Again, I honestly don't know how Yost could go to one of his worst relievers in a tie game in the 9th inning. You start with your best relievers and work your way down. Predictably, Yost defies all logic and does it ass backwards.

[brewjihad]

In his post-game press conference, Ned said the following things:

 

-Riske was being saved for the 10th inning

 

-Turnbow needed to pitch in a close game to get confidence

 

-Turnbow also needed to pitch because everyone was tired

 

-Gagne was going to pitch in a save situation

 

Why do we put up with this?

[adambr2]

If he was going to pitch Gagne again (I didn't catch tonight's game), then he'd rather be right than win.

 

He was warming and was going in the game if we took the lead in the 8th.

 

If you think this board is angry tonight, imagine the uproar if he would have gone with Gagne in the 9th for the save and Gagne ended up blowing it.