Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[jhart05]

Is it known for sure that Castro and Maddux gave Ned the green light? Even if they did, it's not like Yost doesn't have the final decision. Simply because someone may give you bad advice it doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

Well, considering you won't know it's bad advice 'till after the fact, how would someone know it's bad advice at the time?

 

If the pitching coach, bullpen coach, and the player himself, all tell a manager a certain player can pitch on that particular day, why wouldn't you go with that information?

 

Isn't it part of their everyday job to keep the manager updated regarding who's available to pitch on a certain day and who isn't?

[TooLiveBrew]

If the pitching coach, bullpen coach, and the player himself, all tell a manager a certain player can pitch on that particular day, why wouldn't you go with that information?

 

Because the manager is paid to have the superceding opinion. If you look at RP usage, common sense should tell you that using a guy on the 4th consecutive day, in a HR park no less, is not a wise idea. Yes, Yost gets advice from others, but it's ultimately his call. This is the guy that reminded us "I'm the manager, I'm very smart" after all, and the same skipper that needed Prince's 'permission' to not manage like a buffoon late in the season against StL.

[Thurston Fluff]

Because the manager is paid to have the superceding opinion. If you look at RP usage, common sense should tell you that using a guy on the 4th consecutive day, in a HR park no less, is not a wise idea.

 

That useage of Coco five days in a row last year had a long lasting detrimental effect on him didn't it? I'd have way more problems with Yost if he routinely went agianst his coaches and players information than if he followed their reccomendations. Quite frankly I'm kind of surpirsed anyone would critisize him for not superceding his staffs opinions since most people seem to think he doesn't have a clue himself of how to do it. You seem to be suggesting that he take his own opinion, which you yourself feel is poor in that area over that of his staff and players. If he is as poor in game as you think wouldn't that mean he's going to make more mistakes than if he listened to his staff and players?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Another reason I agree with Yost on this decision is it shows he trusts his players. Gagne now knows he has the full confidence of Yost and he can be trusted by his manager. Gagne and Yost will learn from this and this won't happen in September because they both know their limitations now. It costs us a game in April in hindsight, but if Edwin Encarnacion doesn't hit that changeup that was 2 feet off the outside corner over the fence, we aren't even talking about this.

[TooLiveBrew]

Quite frankly I'm kind of surpirsed anyone would critisize him for not superceding his staffs opinions since most people seem to think he doesn't have a clue himself of how to do it. You seem to be suggesting that he take his own opinion, which you yourself feel is poor in that area over that of his staff and players.

 

I'm not saying Yost is smart enough to make a better decision, but was answering the question "why wouldn't you [obv. a hypothetical, not me or you, etc.] go with that information?" So to clarify, I was answering the hypothetical, not saying Yost should strive to listen less to his players.

 

 

Another reason I agree with Yost on this decision is it shows he trusts his players. Gagne now knows he has the full confidence of Yost and he can be trusted by his manager.

 

Gagne knew this already. Now what Gagne 'knows' is that Yost will pitch him in any situation that dictates picking up a "Save" stat... which is what leads to more money for Gagne after this season's one-yr. deal. Wouldn't you put yourself out there every single time the manager would let you if it meant chances at more money? I know I would. Imho, it's up to the manager to have the best interests of the team on his mind, not the player(s).

 

It's troubling to me that it appears (not that 'I know') Yost is using Gagne in a manner by which Eric will have a chance at as many save opportunities as possible, as opposed to utilizing our best/2nd best RP in a manner that most helps the team to wins. I have this crazy Oliver Stone theory that what makes Gagne happiest is the most chances at a fat payday after this season, and Yost is happy to comply. I have nothing to back this up, but it has become something over which I'm genuinely concerned.

 

The appearance that sparked this thought to me was when Gagne was brought in to pitch for Riske @ CIN on 4/18... the game where Riske remarked something to the effect of "You've got to be -hmmhmm- kidding me" as he walked off the mound. Riske had retired the first two batters he faced (first was 3d out of the 8th), and then Griffey had a fluky little 'bunt' base-hit. After Phillips & Dunn singled behind Griffey (KGJ scored on Dunn's hit), Yost went to Gagne, who proceeded to give up a single & run to the next batter, Encarnacion. Yes, Gagne ended up getting the save, but I felt Riske would have as well, and it was an uneccesary use/waste of Gagne.

[Fatter than Joey]

Yost is just passing the buck -- I doubt he even talked to Gagne. Now it's Gange's fault for taking the ball.

[bigredrobbo]

Hindsight goggles - Get Em While They're Hot. They're lovely! Get your Hindsight Goggles here folks!

 

 

Case in point. The Shouse HR against Votto the other day. Dude hasn't given up a HR in over 2 years to a lefty, so it was, regardless of the result, the more likely option than leaving a tiring Suppan in to face Votto.

When it didn't pay off, the usual suspects come in with "what was Yost thinking? He needs to trust his gut more and stop playing matchups."

When he does that, all we hear is "does Yost not realize that Player X is hitting .175 against Reliever Y? He should have pulled the starter earlier".

 

The manager can't win, so Melvin should just fire him now and we can start the vitriol on the new guy's managerial decisions before the All Star Break.

 

It is a fan's prerogative to piss and moan about the team they follow and its staff. I get that. I genuinely believe that some here, though, are not that unhappy when we lose knowing that they can fire up the old Grump-O-Meter...

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Gagne is getting 10 million this year and has gotten paid very well throughout his career. His interests are to win games which coincides with Ned Yost's interests. Sure, Gagne wants to get paid after this year, but it's not like it's a big conspiracy like you making it out to be.

[Oldcity]

Hindsight goggles - Get Em While They're Hot. They're lovely! Get your Hindsight Goggles here folks!

 

Case in point. The Shouse HR against Votto the other day.

I didn't see the in-game thread for that day, but were people really questioning bringing in Shouse? That was a no-brainer move that just didn't work out. Not using a reliever for the fourth consecutive day, in April no less, should have been a no-brainer as well. Even worse, leaving him in to walk another batter after the two homers was baffling.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

His interests are to win games which coincides with Ned Yost's interests.

No, his interests are to pile up as many saves as possible (obv. yes, this means the team wins), which means getting as many save opportunites as possible... even when the appearances aren't necessary, or lead to ineffectiveness in a later save chance, hurting the team.

 

I don't think it's some huge conspiracy, but I also don't think it's out of the realm of plausibility that Yost is there working to get Gagne as many save appearances as possible, regardless whether or not that's in the team's best interests.

[gfwisco]

Here's the kind of stuff that was being typed about Yost for bringing in Shouse the other night..... There are others

 

Like I said before, the move may have been somewhat by the book based on the matchup, but does ned have any feel for the game. Soup was rolling and hadn't given up a hard hit ball for a long time. I think his performance today (not to mention his pitch count) should have allowed him the opportunity to work through that inning. No one was hitting him hard and his command was impeccable.

That is how Yost managed last year though and everyone exploded at him over it. Pitcher would be cruising, give up a couple bloop hits and one hard hit ball, Yost goes to bullpen which lets in runs and everyone says he is an idiot.

-------There is a huge difference between between "giving up a couple of bloop hits and one hard hit ball" and having two outs with no one on and giving up a week grounder that JJ probably should have at least stopped. I'm not saying that I entirely disagree with the reasoning given the situation, but I think a good manager has a real feel for the game and would be able to tell that Soup was cruisng. Has still strong and had his command. And Ned has never had a feel for the game.

-------The problem is your assuming Suppan gets out of it. There was no guarentee of that. Yost brought in the guy that 99 percent of the time doesn't give up a HR in that situation (or at least shouldn't). He made the right move there. He put his team in the position to win the game! Shouse failed. Period.

 

-------The problem is he gets so hung up on the righy-lefty matchups he can't see what's going on in front of him. Soup was cruising. IF he gives up another hit you make the call. He gives up a dribbler and all of a sudden he can't go on? When a pitcher is on, and under 90 pitches, the righty-lefty thing is irrelevant.

 

-------The guy gave up 3 hits in 6 2/3 innings, none of which were hit very hard. I'm comfortable with "assuming" Soup could have pitched out of it

 

-------yeah....LET HIM FINISH THE INNING!!!!!!!!!!!!! He was cruising and under 90 pitches. god. He lets fragile Sheets go over 100 on back to back starts and then he pulls the reliable Suppan before 90 pitches when he's cruising. Piss poor decision I'm sorry

 

--------Seriously, a chimp could manage this team better...

 

--------On paper that may have been the right move to bring in Shouse, but Ned has absolutely no feel for the game whatsoever

 

--------I dont get it. Whats the point of saving the bullpen, when your gonna pull your starter after 85 pitches and a little single?

 

-------jazzytrav wrote:

---

And now when Griffey and Dunn get back up in the bottom of the 9th, our lefty option is ... Stetter?

BINGO. Very poor managing.

-------Ned prefers to leave pitchers in when he should take them out and takes them out when he should leave them in

 

-------Dumb move for Ned yet again.

 

 

 

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

That is how Yost managed last year though and everyone exploded at him over it

 

That's a vast over-generalization. There were many instances last season like the Suppan example here, where Yost went away from a guy & people were frustrated. I can't get too upset, as Shouse clearly was a superior matchup on Votto. However, Yost doesn't seem to do a good job of balancing when his starters are 'on' & pitching well, or 'off' and getting by on some good luck/fielding. I wasn't able to watch this game, but all accounts I saw on Suppan's performance were noting not only his pitch count, but the fact that he looked very impressive. That's a whole lot different from scraping your way through 6 innnings on 100+ pitches.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

No, his interests are to pile up as many saves as possible

What would Gagne rather have?

 

option A) A World Series

option B) One less save that Riske picked up because he had pitched the 3 previous days

 

Gagne wants to win and so does Yost. In their opinion, Gagne going out there in the 10th gave their team the best chance to win. (which turned out to be wrong in hindsight and here we sit)

 

BTW, I think Gagne would take option A.

[TooLiveBrew]

What would Gagne rather have?

 

option A) A World Series

option B) One less save that Riske picked up because he had pitched the 3 previous days

 

Gagne wants to win and so does Yost in their opinion, Gagne going out there in the 10th gave their team the best chance to win. (which turned out to be wrong in hindsight and here we sit)

 

BTW, I think Gagne would take option A.

 

 

No one's debating when Gagne should have been in that game, the talk has been about how he shouldn't have been used in the first place. A non-tired Gagne gives the Brewers the best chance to win, not one being used the 4th day in a row.

 

I'm not sure what your point is with the A) & B) (in B), did you mean "one more save"?), but Gagne wants to win, obviously. However, saves are incredibly valuable to relief pitchers, and I would be surprised if Eric isn't watching his total number of chances very closely. He's been used 9 times so far in 18 games. I know it's more the result of a small sample & mis-management, but you obviously don't want to use your closer 82 times in a season in today's game -- especially since one of the most important aspects of the 'closer' role is that you have to pitch consecutive days when it's needed, not desired.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

A non-tired Gagne gives the Brewers the best chance to win

I do agree with that but the problem was that we didn't have a "non-tired" Gagne. I still think a tired Gagne throwing it 91 mph was a better option than a non-tired Riske throwing it 87 mph and Ned Yost seemed to agree with me.

[adambr2]

No, his interests are to pile up as many saves as possible

What would Gagne rather have?

 

option A) A World Series

option B) One less save that Riske picked up because he had pitched the 3 previous days

 

Gagne wants to win and so does Yost. In their opinion, Gagne going out there in the 10th gave their team the best chance to win. (which turned out to be wrong in hindsight and here we sit)

 

BTW, I think Gagne would take option A.

 

It's not just about the one extra save. It's about what Yost is going to do in this situation. If he runs into it about this often throughout the season -- (and there will be probably be 5-10 situations this season where bringing in Gagne for the save will be at least questionable), Gagne IS going to want the chance to earn the extra saves.

 

Baseball is not a pure sport anymore. Saves are a pretty overrated stat that don't tell us much, but saves are money. If Gagne gets 40 saves this season instead of 32, that's probably several million dollars in a long-term contract just through those 8 extra saves.

 

I'm not trying to badmouth Gagne. I don't care what he cares about as long as he pitches well this year. I'm a Gagne fan for this year because he's a Brewer, but I have little doubt that Eric Gagne's #1 priority is Eric Gagne's well-being. Would he like to win a World Series? I'm sure he would, but I have little doubt that his main agenda when he signed with us was to sign that short 1 year deal for a nice chunk of change, perform well and put together an impressive 2008 to give him a long-term top closer contract with somebody before he retires.

[jazzytrav]

Hindsight goggles - Get Em While They're Hot. They're lovely! Get your Hindsight Goggles here folks!

 

Case in point. The Shouse HR against Votto the other day.

I didn't see the in-game thread for that day, but were people really questioning bringing in Shouse?

Yes, people were questioning bringing in Shouse. And we were questioning it BEFORE he gave up the home run, so you can have your Hindsight Goggles back. I don't think it's necessary to react to a situation with some nonsense about "Hindsight Goggles" when you obviously haven't done any research on it. And I'm not sure how many times I'm going to explain this, but it wasn't that people were questioning the Shouse/Votto matchup. It's that the situation didn't call for pulling Suppan, and Shouse would have been better used in the 9th. Or not used at all, which would have made him more available to pitch the 9th the next day. Either way, Shouse was wasted on one batter.

 

Thanks for pulling all that stuff out gfwisco. I really didn't feel like digging through the IGT http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

If he runs into it about this often throughout the season

The great part about this is that Yost probably won't trot Gagne out there 4 straight days anymore. That's what makes him a good manager. He learns from his mistakes. Case and point is Turnbow not seeing the 8th inning anymore and putting Prince back to the cleanup spot where he feels most comfortable.

 

And even though it was a mistake, he didn't know that before because he's never tried putting Gagne out there 4 times in a row. I'm sure if he could do it all over again, he would do the same thing because he didn't have the information he has now.

 

It's April, and the best way to get value out of games this early in the season is to get a good feel for your team and Yost is doing that right now. Give him a break and let him go to Brady Street and drink his coffee. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

[JohnBriggs12]

Gagne missed nearly all of 2005 and 2006. He was not used more than 2 days in a row in Texas or Boston last year. He was in uncharted territory for him since his surgery. It is in fact, similar to the Wood situation. He's getting close to having his pre surgery velocity back but not quite there. Riske and Torres are veteran relievers who were rested, well paid, and have saved games in the past. It's not like they would be putting a raw rookie out there to close. In fact Riske or Mota will have to close tonight if the situation arises. Teams need an alternate closer from time to time when they get on a streak of close games. Yost did not need to press the issue.

[jazzytrav]

Why is it that Ned didn't have this information that a lot of people here did? It really doesn't take experimentation to realize that it's not a good idea to pitch someone 4 days in a row.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

He did not have the same information that everyone else did on this board. He had information from Gagne himself and his staff including Maddux and Castro. We already covered this.

[brewcrew00]

He did not have the same information that everyone else did on this board. He had information from Gagne himself and his staff including Maddux and Castro. We already covered this.

Ned is in a total lose/lose situation with some on this board. If he listens to his coaches, and it fails, he should have vetoed them. If he goes against what they say and it fails, he should have listened to the other coaches. I honestly believe some people are more concerned with criticizing coaching than winning baseball games.

[jazzytrav]

Ned is in a total lose/lose situation with some on this board. If he listens to his coaches, and it fails, he should have vetoed them. If he goes against what they say and it fails, he should have listened to the other coaches. I honestly believe some people are more concerned with criticizing coaching than winning baseball games.

This is a completely unfair assessment unless you have some kind of proof. At the beginning of last season, before the winning streak, I absolutely loved Ned Yost because I thought he was a great manager to have for younger players. He has a lot of fire and that was something those young guys needed. Now they need a game manager, and in my opinion, he's not cutting it. If he makes a good decision, I will give him credit. But those good decisions need to be made in critical times the way his bad ones usually are. He has made some double-switches before that I thought were brilliant, and others that I thought were stupid.

 

And for the record, we criticize coaching BECAUSE we want to win baseball games. You can point all you want to the wins, but as someone mentioned earlier, I believe Yost is the difference between 100 wins and 88 wins. If we get 88 wins, everyone will point to how great Yost is because he has some magical ability to "win ballgames" as a manager. I just think that's setting the bar too low for this team.

 

He did not have the same information that everyone else did on this board. He had information from Gagne himself and his staff including Maddux and Castro. We already covered this.

So he didn't have information telling him that it's not a good idea to pitch someone 4 days in a row? That was the point I was making.

[TooLiveBrew]

I do agree with that but the problem was that we didn't have a "non-tired" Gagne. I still think a tired Gagne throwing it 91 mph was a better option than a non-tired Riske throwing it 87 mph and Ned Yost seemed to agree with me.

 

Self-congratulating for being wrong? I don't get your inclusion of velocity -- means next to nothing. There were at least two superior choices to throwing Gagne a 4th day in a row.

 

 

He had information from Gagne himself and his staff including Maddux and Castro. We already covered this.

 

This part about having the info straight from Gagne... pretty much my whole 'conspiracy/save opps.' point (please note I'm using the word "conspiracy" in jest). If you're leaving it up to the player, the player is going to tell you, 'yes, I can go'. He feels fine physically (which is totally different from being ready to be his best), so he wants a shot at the valuable save, or he doesn't feel fine, but still wants to rack up another save. It's the manager's job to use common sense and realize that, no matter what a player is saying, RPs do not do well when used 4 days in a row.

 

 

The great part about this is that Yost probably won't trot Gagne out there 4 straight days anymore. That's what makes him a good manager. He learns from his mistakes

 

One of my biggest problems with Yost is his stubbornness. I don't agree all that, in general, he "learns from his mistakes." I think he's learned from certain mistakes, but on the whole he doesn't.

[brewcrew00]

JazzyTrav, I'm not calling you out on this one. I didn't even list anybody's name.