Designated Yost Thread... Latest: No accountability and lack of urgency (part 1)

[naivin]

strawbossisevil wrote:

---

I think everyone could agree that it wasn't one of his better moves of the year...

I think this sums it up pretty well. I wasn't able to see the game, but Gagne probably wasn't a great choice - I would say Gagne, Maddux, and Castro probably shoulder some of the blame as well. I'm sure Ned did not want to use Torres yesterday, but Riske would appear to have been an option, and perhaps even Turnbow (I think yesterday says it all about Turnbow's place on this team. Adios muchahco!). So probably not a real good move on Ned's part.

 

Again, not having actually seen the game, I wonder if the weather wasn't somewhat of a factor as well...It sounds as if he had trouble finding the strike zone, just as he did on a cool wet opening day.

 

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[Thurston Fluff]

I guess Yost was a moron to use Coco the same way last year as well. It didn't hurt Coco down the stretch did it? Closers close. Sometimes they close 3 or 4 in a row then don't get used for another 8 days. If this was the third or fourth time he used Gagne this way and he blew them all then I'd get the critisism. Given that it's the first time Yost attempted to use him this way why is it all that big a deal? To paraphrase Kremblas philosophy - How is he supposed to know if Gagne can handle that type of situation until he uses him in it? If gagne wasn't ready to go and said he was then put the blame on him. If he felt he was ready to go then what's the problem with using him?

[naivin]

If gagne wasn't ready to go and said he was then put the blame on him. If he felt he was ready to go then what's the problem with using him?

 

I guess this is a pretty good point. Perhaps it wasn't necessarily a good move or a bad move, but rather a move that just didn't work out.

[Ennder]

I guess Yost was a moron to use Coco the same way last year as well. It didn't hurt Coco down the stretch did it? Closers close. Sometimes they close 3 or 4 in a row then don't get used for another 8 days. If this was the third or fourth time he used Gagne this way and he blew them all then I'd get the critisism. Given that it's the first time Yost attempted to use him this way why is it all that big a deal? To paraphrase Kremblas philosophy - How is he supposed to know if Gagne can handle that type of situation until he uses him in it? If gagne wasn't ready to go and said he was then put the blame on him. If he felt he was ready to go then what's the problem with using him?

 

Cordero wasn't coming off of 3 straight years of being injured though. Gagne should never be used 4 days in a row and really shouldn't be used 3 days in a row. Keeping him healthy is more important than him getting every single save opportunity.

[zzzmanwitz]

Last year we didn't have the depth that we have this year. There were multiple options to go to. Gagne will be fine and a very productive member of the bullpen this year, but when you have guys like Torres and Riske available, you give Gagne the day off. This was really the first game that Ned has blown for us this year, so I'm happy its only been one so far.

[lukevan]

If Gagne is ready to go, I don't think Yost should be bashful about using him. Gagne is ours for one season; we might as well use him up early and often; the more we see of Gagne the more we'll know about how reliable he'll be during the later stages of the season. By then Mota could be closing. Or Torres. We obviously want Gagne around for the stretch run but if he says he's ready to go Yost shouldn't have to exercise as much restraint.

[Thurston Fluff]

Cordero wasn't coming off of 3 straight years of being injured though. Gagne should never be used 4 days in a row and really shouldn't be used 3 days in a row. Keeping him healthy is more important than him getting every single save opportunity.

 

He was healthy all last year wasn't he? He's paid quite a bit of money to be the go to guy. I don't think they paid him that much to be pampered or nurtured back to health. They paid him to go out as often as he says he's ready to go and do the job they paid him to do. Like I said it was the first time Ned used him that way. The only way to know if he can be used that way is to try it. I'd rather know that now than in September. Some of this, I think, is related to Ned trying to learn his new pithcers. I just can't blame Yost for using someone who says he's good to go in a situation like he did. In fact if Ned is going to learn about Gagne's strengths he has to find out his weakness' as well. What better time to learn this particular bit of information than the last game of a three city road trip where you have already secured a winning trip and the team you are now up two games to zero with a two run lead? If he stumbles there was a bit of a cushion in the game to work with. Even if all goes wrong it certainly isn't devastating over all. Perfect time to learn something about your new closer whether it worked or not IMO.

[Thurston Fluff]

This was really the first game that Ned has blown for us this year, so I'm happy its only been one so far.

 

Funny, I thought it was Gagne who blew it. Either because he said he was ready when he wasn't or because he was ready and couldn't keep the ball in the park.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The problem with bullpen management right now is the offense hasn't shown a consistent ability to score alot of runs - that makes every decision difficult. I'm hoping that all the guys scuffling at the plate get it going so we can enjoy a few blowout wins.

 

I still go back to wondering when/how Turnbow is going to be used - right now the Brewers have 14 pitchers on their roster, so they are extremely handcuffed to make moves position player-wise within games. 13-14 pitchers, and there's still concern over guys getting overworked...that just shouldn't happen. If the Brewers insist on keeping Turnbow on the active roster, they have to use him more than once a week - as bad as he's been, if he's worth a roster spot to the Brewers he needs to pitch - otherwise it's like playing with a 23-24 man roster.

[jjfanec]

Just because a player says he is ready doesnt mean you pitch him. You everyday players will always tell you they are good to go but you still sit them every once in awhile to give them rest. Players are almost always going to tell you they can play, as a manager you have to be smart enough to know if it is a good idea to play them.

[Fatter than Joey]

I guess Yost was a moron to use Coco the same way last year as well.

 

Agreed 100%

 

I am pretty convinced that the primary reason Gagne was used was that it was a statistical save situation -- had the Brewers been up by 4 runs, Gagne would not have been used -- i find this entirely arbitrary.

[Thurston Fluff]

I am pretty convinced that the primary reason Gagne was used was that it was a statistical save situation -- had the Brewers been up by 4 runs, Gagne would not have been used -- i find this entirely arbitrary.

 

I tend to agree with you on this point but Melvin, as do most of today's baseball people, seem to disagree with us. they beleive closers have a differant sor tof mentality. Somehow the game on the line with very little margin for error makes some wilt and some flourish. Given those beliefs by both Yost and Melvin I see why they went to him yesterday. Given his failure this time around I'll be less understanding in the future.

 

Just because a player says he is ready doesnt mean you pitch him. You everyday players will always tell you they are good to go but you still sit them every once in awhile to give them rest. Players are almost always going to tell you they can play, as a manager you have to be smart enough to know if it is a good idea to play them.

 

While this is true enough for postion players the bullpen is entirely differant. They are expected to be honest about their ability to go. It is very normal, not to mention necessary, for bullpen guys to tell the manager they are tired and not available for a particular game. I would assume certain pitchers are more honest than others or perhaps think they are when they are not but that has to be something a manager learns from trial and error with each pitcher. If Gagne always says he's ready when he's not Ned will learn not to trust him. But under the circumstances there was no reason not to believe him.

[jazzytrav]

There was also no reason to sit perfectly healthy and energized relievers with the ability to hold a 2 run lead and put in a pitcher who pitched 3 days in a row. There is absolutely no reason to play the game this way. It's about probabilities. Managers seem to understand this about left/right splits for the most part, so why can't they understand this about their relievers? A rested Riske has a better probability of closing the game than Gagne on his 4th straight day. Maybe that's not obvious to anyone else, but it is to me.

 

And again, if Shouse hadn't been wasted the day before, he would have been a perfect option with 3 lefties coming up after Encarnacion. Now we have the same situation where Gagne is basically wasted if we have a close game today. In my opinion, Ned is completely unprepared for anything after the inning that he's in.

[ozzybourne]

There was also no reason to sit perfectly healthy and energized relievers with the ability to hold a 2 run lead and put in a pitcher who pitched 3 days in a row.

i agree with you 100%. with 14 pitchers on the staff, and riske/torres having closing experience, yost blew it. gagne has looked good, but with so many options, 4 days in a row was stupid. and then who closes today? or do we use gagne 5 days in a row?

 

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[Fatter than Joey]

or do we use gagne 5 days in a row?

 

Yep. If Gagne gives Ned the green light!

[brewcrew00]

or do we use gagne 5 days in a row?

 

Yep. If Gagne gives Ned the green light!

Or if Castro and Maddux and Gagne give Ned the green light...

[Glennron]

Or if Castro and Maddux and Gagne give Ned the green light...

Is it known for sure that Castro and Maddux gave Ned the green light? Even if they did, it's not like Yost doesn't have the final decision. Simply because someone may give you bad advice it doesn't mean you have to listen to it.

[Thurston Fluff]

and then who closes today? or do we use gagne 5 days in a row?

 

the exact same reason you gave for why they shouldn't have used Gagne yesterday make this question irrlevant doesn't it? I mean we have all the same players who could have been used yesterday in the pen today don't we? The only differance is yesteday we know we needed a closer today we don't. To me you use your closer when you need him and let the future to the guys you may have used today take care of it. I've seen plenty of people talk about riske and Torres having been used as a closer but no one actually mentions how they did in that role. Riske, in this his tenth year, has all of 21 saves with a high of 8 a year as I recall he didn't fare very well in the closer's role. Torres had a high of 12 in both 06 and 07 but couldn't maintian that role even with the lowly Pirates and Mota has 7 throughout his 10 years in the league. So all the closing experience of those three combined don't even match Turnbow and certainly don't come close to what Gagne has done thorugh the years.

[jazzytrav]

That's also based on this idea that the "closer" has some sort of intense ability fight off pressure and win the game. I just don't see a huge difference between "closer" experience and "reliever" experience. What's the difference between bringing in a closer with a one run lead in the 9th and bringing in a reliever with a one run lead in the 7th? Either way, it's a pressure situation.

[ozzybourne]

If there is a save situation today, who would you use?

 

 

(eliminated unnecessary quoted material --1992)

[Thurston Fluff]

Given what happened yesterday Riske or Mota. That doesn't make the decision to use Gagne yesterday the wrong one though. To be honest under the same circumstances as yesterday I be inclined to try Gagne once more to see if yesterday was a fluke or a trend. That would be more inclination than set in stone though. I'd have to have been involved in the conversation between Gagne and the coachs in both situations to determine that for sure. At the next Yost is God meeting I'll ask Ned if I can be privey to those talks.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

I just don't see a huge difference between "closer" experience and "reliever" experience.

 

Nirhter do I but according to Melvin and other people whose opinion is more trustworthy than mine we are both wrong about this.

[TooLiveBrew]

If there is a save situation today, who would you use?

It would depend. If it's a 3-run lead, I'd be confident in any of: Mota, Turnbow, Riske, Torres (maybe more)

 

2 runs or less: Riske, Torres, Mota (maybe more)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Why should Ned Yost care about selling newspapers?

Exactly. That's why no one should take press conferences at face value. Because Yost doesn't care about selling newspapers. He cares about his team. And now here comes the "Well if he cared about his team he wouldn't have brought Gagne in after pitching 3 straight days." So I'll say it before everyone else does.

 

Do you think people didn't know how Yost was going to answer the "Why did you bring Gagne in?" in the press conference? That's why they are a waste of time.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

That's obvious? That's not very obvious to me. That sounds like managing robotically. I sure don't want Gagne coming in during a save situation tommorow just because he is our closer.

So you don't know why Yost brought Gagne in? Just because you disagree with him doesn't mean you don't know why.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Lou was purposely keeping Wood out after he had pitched 2 days in a row.

I think the Kerry Wood situation is a lot different than Gagne's situation. Sure, Gagne had some injury problems, but it's not like Kerry Wood's where his arm fell off and they had to sew it back on so he could pitch again.