Designated Lineup Thread / Latest... Haudricourt: Kendall Batting Ninth is Working (reply #113)

[craigharmann]

Actually, I thought Bill made some sense in the rambling. You don't set up your lineup to avoid a possibility of something. I would think there is a reason why the pitcher hits 9th in almost every other NL lineup in baseball. But yet, somehow, Yost goes against that to avoid Kendall hitting into double plays? I don't get it.

[endaround]

Pitchers hitting 9th made sense when pitchers would go complete games or relievers would come in and hit for themselves since they were going to pitch three innings. Neither happens now.

[T B0NE 10]

id do this

 

Kendall

Hardy

Braun

Fielder

Hart

Cameron

Weeks

Branyan/Hall

[logan82]

I'd do this

 

Weeks

Fielder

Cameron

Braun

Hart

Hardy

Hall

Pitcher

Kendall

 

but I would be ok with this

Weeks

Cameron

Braun

Fielder

Hart

Hardy

Hall

Pitcher

Kendall

 

I hate Kendall leading off as I think he should be off every third day and that would mean a lineup shakeup every third day. In fact the only lineup that I would hate is

 

Pitcher

Kendall

Hall

Hardy

Cameron

Hart

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

[DougJones43]

I think Cameron and Hart should swap spots in the batting order. We need more OBP at the top of the order.

 

.328 and .280 isn't getting it done. Especially with Braun and Fielder starting to consistently hit some homeruns.

[uwisfan]

I think Cameron and Hart should swap spots in the batting order. We need more OBP at the top of the order.

 

.328 and .280 isn't getting it done. Especially with Braun and Fielder starting to consistently hit some homeruns.

Not just that, but Hart can move on the bases and Cameron is more power, so they should be switched anyways.

 

[logan82]

uwisfan wrote:

Not just that, but Hart can move on the bases and Cameron is more power, so they should be switched anyways.

I would think that Hart has more power than Cameron and both can steal bases.

[TooLiveBrew]

Hart is easily more powerful than Cameron at this point.

[orca1963]

I think Cameron and Hart should swap spots in the batting order. We need more OBP at the top of the order.

 

.328 and .280 isn't getting it done. Especially with Braun and Fielder starting to consistently hit some homeruns.

 

Add me to the growing list that thinks this is a great idea.

[1992casey]

I'd like Mike to bat third, but since that won't happen, I could buy into the idea of a Hart/Cameron switch.

[logan82]

I still think at this point of the season we are better off trying to make a lineup bases mostly on preseason projections. Especially with Cameron since he only has one month's worth of at bats.

[DougJones43]

I still think at this point of the season we are better off trying to make a lineup bases mostly on preseason projections. Especially with Cameron since he only has one month's worth of at bats.

Most pre-season predictions have Hart posting better numbers (including a higher OBP) than Cameron, no?

[jazzytrav]

I'd like Mike to bat third, but since that won't happen, I could buy into the idea of a Hart/Cameron switch.

I could definitely be on board with that. I'm not a big fan of the "Hart protects Fielder" idea. I would rather just have a guy that gets on base batting higher in the order.

[logan82]

I still think at this point of the season we are better off trying to make a lineup bases mostly on preseason projections. Especially with Cameron since he only has one month's worth of at bats.

Most pre-season predictions have Hart posting better numbers (including a higher OBP) than Cameron, no?

 

They also have Hart with better power numbers, which is more important in the 5 hole than the 2 hole

[owbc]

I rarely criticize Ned Yost, but Corey Hart is NOT a leadoff hitter. He has used the following arguments before, but I feel like he has abandoned them for whatever reason...

I don't see how you can call Hart our best option for leadoff hitter when throughout his entire career save a few games he has been a middle of the order RBI guy. I don't see how that translates to being a leadoff hitter except that he has speed. He OBP is only 45 points above his BA, that isn't anything impressive. Craig Counsell's OBP is almost 100 points higher than his BA, like you would expect from a leadoff hitter. And honestly, how many bases is Hart going to steal anyway compared to Counsell/Dillon? We depend on power to win, so we shouldn't bother failing at small ball like we have for the last 10 years.

Furthermore, we just moved our best hitter with RISP to the leadoff spot. Everyone complained about the decision to have Corey bunt on Sunday, but as a leadoff hitter, bunting is somewhat expected. I'd rather have my .300 hitter swinging away, especially since he is fast enough to beat out routine ground balls.

Also, what's up with Fielder/Branyan batting back to back? That's just asking for a lefty specialist.

Basically, I don't see what's wrong with Dillon/Counsell leading off. Hart is a viable candidate, yes, but do we really want to count on Counsell/Kendall to get on in front of our best RBI guy, or do we want Braun and Fielder?

[endaround]

Counsell shouldn't lead off because he is bad hitter. And who care about how BA w/RISP. That's 57 ABs.

[owbc]

57 at-bats this year...

 

But last year he had a 1.037 OPS with RISP in 115 at-bats, best on the team. Still a small sample size, but there's no reason to think it won't continue.

 

He has been a run producer his entire career. I want my run producer in a position where he can produce as many runs as possible, which is after Prince Fielder, especially since Prince hasn't been clearing the bases this year.

 

I've been thinking Rickie Weeks (when he returns) as the #8 or #9 hitter would make me feel better about this

[rluzinski]

I have no problem with maximizing Hart's ABs. Why give Weeks the extra 70+ AB?

[Glennron]

If Joe Dillon is in the lineup, I don't mind him leading off. In the minors his OBP was 84 points above his average, and in his (very short) major league career it's 76 points higher. I never want to see Counsell lead off. Just because his OBP is 100 points higher than his BA doesn't make him good. In the meantime, I have no problem with Hart leading off as long as Counsell is getting some PT.

[TooLiveBrew]

He has been a run producer his entire career.

 

The fact that you just said this about Craig Counsell... and seriously... makes me feel dizzy. You seem to like Counsell, & have managed in the past to provide nice-looking data samples. I wonder if you'd be a bit more fair.

 

Why not post his career with RISP? .272/.382/.356/.738 (1,031 PA)

 

Or his career with men on? .268/.362/.343/.705 (1,698 PA)

 

 

It just looks like a heavy case of cherry-picking. Not saying it's intentional, just saying...

 

 

EDIT: jazzytrav has pointed out to me that I got this wrong; owbc was talking about Hart, not Counsell. I don't feel dizzy anymore, but for some reason I taste shoe... http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/embarassed.gif Sorry, owbc!! I remembered a conversation in the past about Counsell with the bases juiced, and lept to a conclusion. Egg is on my face.

[GoudaBrew]

So, I'd say Hart has at least hit well enough at the lead off spot to stir up a little "lineup controversy", if you will. I, personally liked Weeks in the leadoff spot until this year. He just isn't hitting enough to justify it though (unless he turns it around obviously). So, for now anyway, I'm all for keeping Hart in the lead off spot. Here's what I'd like to see once Weeks comes back (assuming we have a healthy Hardy).

 

Hart

Weeks

Braun

Fielder

Cameron

Branyan/Hall

Hardy

Kendall

Pitcher

 

Who knows, maybe hitting in the 2-hole is exactly what Rickie needs (good fastball hitter, and a spot where his speed can still be utilized). Ultimately, I think Hart is best suited to hit 5th, but other teams have had success with an "RBI machine" leading off (see Cubs, Marlins off the top of my head).

 

Any thoughts on this? I don't love Cam hitting 5th, but it breaks up the 2 lefty bats and Cam has hit in the middle of the order for most of his career.

[DonMoney4Mgr]

My dream lineup 2009;

 

1) Roberts 2B

2) Hart CF/RF

3) Braun CF/RF

4) Fielder 1B

5) LaPorta LF

6) Gamel 3B

7) Salamone C

8) Escabar SS

9) SP

 

Bench; Kapler, Crabbe, Rivera, Brad Nelson, Dillon

 

Rotation; Sheets, Gallardo, Sabathia, Parra, Jeffries

 

Bullpen; Dillard, Riske, Torrez, and whoever you can get from trading Weeks, Bush, Hardy, Suppan, and Hall.

 

Free up money by trading Suppan (although I do like him), Hall, Hardy, Bush, and Weeks. Save additional money by going younger on the bench, position players, and the bullpen. Use the payroll to sign Sheets ( 4yr/70M), Sabathia (?M), and trade for Roberts (8.3M).

 

There's your world series game plan baby!

[Glennron]

I think the whole "Hart and Cameron are responding well to batting #1 and #6" is pretty silly at this point. Aside from the fact it's only been three games, they played in a HR friendly stadium against a pretty bad pitching staff. I heard Brain and Bill say "Cam is loving the 6th spot!", yet I didn't hear them mention that he's hit 5 of his 9 HR at Minute Maid Park, though I'll admit I didn't see all three games completely so maybe it was said.