4/10/08 Reds (Harang) at Brewers (Villanueva): 12:05 PM CDT

[rluzinski]

What big picture are you looking at? Gross is a lifetime .242 hitter. .404 slugger, who can't play defense.

At least Kapler can play defense.

 

Let's be objective about this:

 

Vs. RHP:

Gross (05' - 07'): .270/.361/.464/.825 (440 AB)

Kapler (04' - 06'): 0.233/292/.292/.584 (288 AB)

 

I concede that Kapler is the better CFer but those splits aren't even in the same universe. I do not believe that Kapler's defense makes up for the fact that he can't hit righties at all. I'm not sure that Gross is even average in CF but I don't think he's the defensive liability that others seem to think he is. He's not very fast but reads the ball reasonably well and has a good arm.

 

As I've said before, with Cameron still susppended and Gwynn hurt, the "right" move is to probably have Hart play CF and Gross play RF against a RH pitcher but I guess that's not an option. With Gwynn hurt, Gross in CF is easily the second best option, IMO.

 

"he hit .270/.361/.464 vs. righthanders the last 3 seasons"

 

But only .244/.328/.459 last year. I'd take Matt Stairs anyday.

 

Why would you reject a larger sample for a smaller one? Because it supports your argument better?

[olliegjw]

He is also a player that hit .270/.361/.464 the last three season vs. right handers. When your team OPS drops .100 points vs. a right hander, Gabe Gross becomes extremely valuable to have around. And its not like he is a total butcher either. He isnt Torii Hunter out there in center but...

Gross seems to be the team's best all-around defender in the outfield, leading Brew Crew outfielders in plays above average despite limited playing time.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/first-half-in-review-the-milwaukee-brewers/

 

Wow, you really made me laugh there. Gross always seemed like a below average defender to me. Then, I went to the game last night. He is a butcher in CF. He had horrible jumps on the ball, and took bad angles. There were 3 balls that above average CF's make, and the only one he came remotely close on was Dunn's HR.

Edit: I forgot to mention Gross's great day at the plate. 0-3 while swinging at the first pitch in each at-bat. I thought Estrada was back on the team last night.

[Dmiles23]

I'm not a Gross fan at all. But I don't mind seeing him in the lineup against a righty. But I do have a problem with him playing CF. He is not a center fielder! They said their main objective was to improve their defense this year, but yet they stick Gross in center. Hart didn't seem to have a problem scooting over to center last season, and it should be less of a problem because they are playing in their home ball park. With the team the way it is now, I'd rather have the best defensive player possible in center... and that is not Gabe Gross.

[dlk9s]

Yost is just terrible. He should put the 1990's Ken Griffey, Jr. in CF and Ichiro in RF. AT LEAST get Jay Buhner in RF! Yosted again!

[SheetsCyYoung04]

He is also a player that hit .270/.361/.464 the last three season vs. right handers. When your team OPS drops .100 points vs. a right hander, Gabe Gross becomes extremely valuable to have around. And its not like he is a total butcher either. He isnt Torii Hunter out there in center but...

Gross seems to be the team's best all-around defender in the outfield, leading Brew Crew outfielders in plays above average despite limited playing time.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/first-half-in-review-the-milwaukee-brewers/

 

Wow, you really made me laugh there. Gross always seemed like a below average defender to me. Then, I went to the game last night. He is a butcher in CF. He had horrible jumps on the ball, and took bad angles. There were 3 balls that above average CF's make, and the only one he came remotely close on was Dunn's HR.

Edit: I forgot to mention Gross's great day at the plate. 0-3 while swinging at the first pitch in each at-bat. I thought Estrada was back on the team last night.

So you are basing your opinion on last nights game and what he seemed like? When they play 162 games that seems a little short sited. I provided a sample size of half a season that Gross was the team's best defender, you looked at one game. Defensive metrics are shaky, and Gross isnt a great center fielder but he is better than most on this board give him credit for.

"0-3 while swinging at the first pitch in each at-bat."

Yet he still leads the team in ISO OBP.

 

[Fear The Chorizo]

these next two games are going to say alot regarding who gets bumped to the bullpen when Yo returns. Villy and Parra got off to good starts this season, but they were at home against the Giants. If they turn in two solid starts the next two games against major leage-caliber lineups, it's going to be difficult for management to justify keeping Bush in the rotation over either of them right now.

[olliegjw]

So you are basing your opinion on last nights game and what he seemed like? When they play 162 games that seems a little short sited. I provided a sample size of half a season that Gross was the team's best defender, you looked at one game. Defensive metrics are shaky, and Gross isnt a great center fielder but he is better than most on this board give him credit for.

I have played and watched enough baseball in my life to trust my opinion more than any faulty defensive metrics that are available. And, yes, with one game you can tell that a CF is not very good. Bad jumps and bad angles are big-time no-no's for a major league center fielder. It wasn't a one-time event last night, it happened on a number of plays, and that only confirmed what I believed from watching the games on tv.

[olliegjw]

Yet he still leads the team in ISO OBP.

 

I have no idea what ISO OBP is, and I don't really care. One of his one-pitch outs came right after Bush scored on the error. Maybe, if Gabe had taken a few pitches, and let Bush get some rest, Bush wouldn't have given back the lead in the 6th.

[rluzinski]

There were 3 balls that above average CF's make.

 

Fly ball to deep center that (almost?) hit the base of the wall; ball hit over the wall that Gross wasn't able to bring back into the park... what was the 3rd one? I thought those two plays were difficult, so I wasn't surprised that he didn't make them... since he's not an above average CFer.

 

I think we all generally agree that Gross is a below average CFer. What we aren't in agreement on is how below average he is. Some say slightly, others think that he's so bad that he's a liability there. Gross hasn't accrued enough innings for me to think defensive metrics really tell us anything, so we are only left with subjective personal assessments. The fans that rated Gross in the 2005 and 2006 fan scouting report thought he was a slightly above average defender:

 

http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2005_TOR.html

 

http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2006_MIL.html

 

They soured on him in 2007, however:

 

http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2007_MIL.html

 

I think those few terrible plays Gross had in 2007 have biased the public's opinion on Gross's overall defensive abilities. While I'd rather him playing RF, I think he can play a passable CF when injuries make it necessary.

[cheesecup22]

I have no idea what ISO OBP is, and I don't really care. One of his one-pitch outs came right after Bush scored on the error. Maybe, if Gabe had taken a few pitches, and let Bush get some rest, Bush wouldn't have given back the lead in the 6th.

Serious? you are blaming Gross' AB for Bush allowing runs in the 6th?

 

[SheetsCyYoung04]

"Gabe Gross becomes extremely valuable to have around."

 

He's Jay Gibbons without the steroids. Gibbons was released by the O's this spring who ate over $11 million.

 

"leads the Brewers in above average plays"

 

Does being the tallest midget make you tall? He also leads the Brewers in hilariously funny bad defensive plays.

 

"he hit .270/.361/.464 vs. righthanders the last 3 seasons"

 

But only .244/.328/.459 last year. I'd take Matt Stairs anyday.

Did you just pick out a random player? Jay Gibbons? I see no comparison what-so-ever.

Even factoring in Gibbons best two season 2005 & 2006, Gross splits are superior.

Gibbons 3 year splits .267/.321/.462 . The two players arnt close

"I'd take Matt Stairs anyday."

Bill James Projection Stairs-.258/.352/.454 Gross-.272/.364/.439

CHONE Stairs-.255/.338/.445 Gross-.254/.347/.416

 

Marcel Stairs-.262/.342/.446 Gross-.259/.348/.441

 

MINER Stairs-.266/.336/.426 Gross-.256/.338/.410

 

ZiPS Stairs- .253/.336/.434 Gross-.264/.358/.426

 

So Gross gets on base more, Stairs hits for more power. I dont really see a substantial difference and if we didnt have Gabe Gross, we should probably be looking at acquiring Matt Stairs for a much needed lefty bat.

[olliegjw]

I have no idea what ISO OBP is, and I don't really care. One of his one-pitch outs came right after Bush scored on the error. Maybe, if Gabe had taken a few pitches, and let Bush get some rest, Bush wouldn't have given back the lead in the 6th.

Serious? you are blaming Gross' AB for Bush allowing runs in the 6th?

 

 

Nope, just stating that Gross was not patient at all, when 95% of MLB players would have taken at least one or two pitches.

[olliegjw]

There were 3 balls that above average CF's make.

 

Fly ball to deep center that (almost?) hit the base of the wall; ball hit over the wall that Gross wasn't able to bring back into the park... what was the 3rd one? I thought those two plays were difficult, so I wasn't surprised that he didn't make them... since he's not an above average CFer.

There was one in the gap in RC when he was already shaded that way. He broke back first, and then over. A good jump it could have been caught. I believe there was another liner that landed in front of him. He was playing deep, and didn't make a good break in (I admit, those are very tough to get a good jump on). A better CF, would probably be playing more shallow, and have a better chance.

 

Again, none of these were "easy" plays. It would take a good to very good CF to make any of them. I believe Cameron and Gwynn would have made a couple of them.

[sheethead]

Fly ball to deep center that (almost?) hit the base of the wall; ball hit over the wall that Gross wasn't able to bring back into the park... what was the 3rd one? I thought those two plays were difficult, so I wasn't surprised that he didn't make them... since he's not an above average CFer.

 

I watched this play a few times with dvr assistance, and I came to the conclusion that Gross knocked the ball over the wall. It would not have cleared the fence without the assistance of Gross and his glove. I am going to go ahead and say Gross is a useless bum. Now, you know what to do with that comment today Gabe.

[BrewCrewForever]

I'm getting a headache.

[And That]

I like Ben Sheets. He's a pretty good pitcher.

[SheetsCyYoung04]

I have no idea what ISO OBP is, and I don't really care. One of his one-pitch outs came right after Bush scored on the error. Maybe, if Gabe had taken a few pitches, and let Bush get some rest, Bush wouldn't have given back the lead in the 6th.

Serious? you are blaming Gross' AB for Bush allowing runs in the 6th?

 

Nope, just stating that Gross was not patient at all, when 95% of MLB players would have taken at least one or two pitches.

And you are basing this 95% number on? Gross saw 3.91 pitches per plate appearance last season. That is 69 out of 235 national league players who had at least 100 at bats. The man isnt remotely close to Johnny Estrada (who btw was dead last on the list)

 

[Mr QL]

ewwww Gross again

 

whatever happened to playing the hot hand?

[olliegjw]

I have no idea what ISO OBP is, and I don't really care. One of his one-pitch outs came right after Bush scored on the error. Maybe, if Gabe had taken a few pitches, and let Bush get some rest, Bush wouldn't have given back the lead in the 6th.

Serious? you are blaming Gross' AB for Bush allowing runs in the 6th?

 

Nope, just stating that Gross was not patient at all, when 95% of MLB players would have taken at least one or two pitches.

And you are basing this 95% number on? Gross saw 3.91 pitches per plate appearance last season. That is 69 out of 235 national league players who had at least 100 at bats. The man isnt remotely close to Johnny Estrada (who btw was dead last on the list)

 

 

I didn't say he was Johnny Estrada over his career, or last year. I said last night. 3 AB's, 3 pitches total.

[SheetsCyYoung04]

I didn't say he was Johnny Estrada over his career, or last year. I said last night. 3 AB's, 3 pitches total.

My point was you cant really use that as an argument for him not playing tonight. The man is a relatively patient hitter. Maybe Skaalen's scouting report said swing early on Fogg. Maybe he misread the signs. Maybe he was drunk. There is still overwhelming evidence that Gross will be an adequately patient hitter tonight regardless of what happened last night.

 

[dlk9s]

I like tacos.

[And That]

You know what's really good? Water.

[trwi7]

whatever happened to playing the hot hand?

 

Maybe Yost realized that platoon hitters with bad splits against the same handed pitcher as they bat should not get a lot of playing time against same handed pitchers. *cough* Mench *cough*

[Mike2k33]

I can't wait until Mike Cameron returns.

 

 

I think Gross is a fine bench player and a capable 4th OF. I am getting sick of seeing Gross in the lineup, but he's the best option right now vs RHP.

[sheethead]

I have sympathy for idiots.