5/22/07 Brewers (Sheets) @ Dodgers (Wolf): 9:10 PM CDT

[TooLiveBrew]

Sheets continues to find his groove. After his last performance -- a stellar 8 K outing -- I'm really looking forward to seeing him go to work in a notorious pitcher's park.

 

Plus, Tommy Lasorda loves Ben, and I wouldn't want him to disappoint Uncle Tommy! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[berniebrewer4life]

Come on benny, how about a 3 game winning streak?

[berniebrewer4life]

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If you listen to Sparky from WSSP, he has it right.

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I stopped listening to Sparky after he proclaimed Wins as the end all, be all for how to judge a pitcher. My sister who knows nothing about baseball has more insight than him.

 

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Just because a guy can throw 96 mph doesn't mean he's great, just so you all know that.

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True, it's because of his curveball and his usually outstanding k/bb ratio that makes him great.e

[SlideBernieSlide]

How does one define an Ace?

 

Everytime Ben Sheets takes the mound. I feel like we're going to win the game. No matter who the opposing pitcher is that night. Be it Jake Peavy, Randy Johnson, Roy Oswalt, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz or whoever..I like my chances with Sheets.

 

Just as the fans of those listed above feel the same way.

[TheCrew07]

Well, that might true this year, but in year's past when Ben took the mound I fully expected the crew to lose 2-1 or 1-0, but I get your point.

[TooLiveBrew]

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Well, that might true this year, but in year's past when Ben took the mound I fully expected the crew to lose 2-1 or 1-0

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Which was totally his fault and why he's not a true ace

[Ennder]

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Very uneducated comment. I didn't know such bitterness ensues when you knock everyone's beloved Ben. If you listen to Sparky from WSSP, he has it right. The guy can't put together more than one good season and everyone goes ga-ga over the guy for some reason. Just because a guy can throw 96 mph doesn't mean he's great, just so you all know that. His fastball is very hittable as it has little, if no movement

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Not uneducated at all, we have been over and over this and your main argument for him not being an ace is he got hurt and he doesn't find ways to win. You also seem to think that other aces get it done when they have their bad stuff even though I've posted an encyclopedia of stats showing otherwise. The only difference between Sheets and other ace pitchers over the past 3 years is that Sheets got hurt and the teams behind him didn't score a lot.

 

Its really not worth going into again, you don't like Sheets for some reason and no amount of stats is going to convince you otherwise until he goes out and wins 20 games.

[TooLiveBrew]

Stupid "facts"

[mikerollins]

I HONESTLY can't believe we have to go over this again and again and again and again..it's like you have a problem comprehending the facts.

 

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The guy can't put together more than one good season

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This is such a waste of my time to type it all out again, but it's such a joke that I'm just going to anyways.

 

2002: 34 starts; 216 innings, 170 K's, 70 BB's 4.15 ERA

2003: 34 starts; 220 innings; 157 K's, 43 BB's 4.45 ERA

2004: 34 starts; 237 innings, 264 K's, 32 BB's 2.70 ERA

2005; 22 starts (3 CG's); 141 K's, 25 BB's 3.33 ERA

After his 22nd start he was injured and did not return until the middle of 2006, after his return in 2006 he posted

2006: 17 starts; 116 K's, 11 B's, 3.82 ERA

2007: 9 starts, 34 K's, 12 BB's, 3.86 ERA

 

His first 2 years were very very very good seasons. His 2004 season was one of the greatest seasons in the history of the sport. In 2005 he was off to a better start..that 3.33 ERA is with a 10 ER/3 inning outing in the start he got hurt in.

 

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everyone goes ga-ga over the guy for some reason

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Because he's one of the Top 3 pitchers in the entire league (Santana, Peavy, Sheets). I don't want anybody else. Those are my 3 guys that I'd want on the mound with 3 games to win. Seems good enough reason to "ga-ga' to me.

 

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Just because a guy can throw 96 mph doesn't mean he's great

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Thanks for making my point for me. What makes him great is his knee buckling curve ball. Arguably the greatest curveball of all-time. His fastball is just set up by the curve.

 

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His fastball is very hittable as it has little, if no movement.

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Talk about the most obvious point ever made on this site. Anybody's fastball is hittable if poorly located and no movement. That's why it's important Sheets gets his curve over and locates his fastball well.

 

It's a good thing that swearing isn't allowed on this site because I'd have dropped F bombs every other word throughout all the fallacies of your post. I don't understand how baseball "fans" can be so ignorant to the obvious facts.

 

To take it a step further; his last 6 starts.

3-0 Record, 36 innings, 11 Runs, 26 K's, 9 BB's, 2.75 ERA

 

Factor in his opening day start....and you have:

4-0 Record, 45 innings, 12 runs, 28K's, 9 BB's, 2.40

 

So basically he had 1 outing where he struggled and one outing where he wasn't dominant, but still very good. He's had 7 outings where he's been almost unhittable.

 

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Anyone who knows baseball knows you look to your ace to be the stopper in preventing losing streaks.

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I believe he was 2-0 on the East Coast Swing......

His other partners in crime were 0-5.

 

I could go on and on and on....but the best proof will be about 11:15 tonight.

 

Go Crew.

[mikerollins]

ahhhh this 9:00 time is killin me..I feel like the lineups should be posted in a little bit, but we still have 4 more hours til lineups. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Go Brewers!!!

[rluzinski]

Anyone who knows baseball knows you look to your ace to be the stopper in preventing losing streaks.

 

That's just some more cliche bologna that guys like Sparky like to spoon feed guys like you. An ace is expected to be the best starting pitcher on the team. If he's a good ace, he's going to give the team a reasonable chance of winning if he's given any kind of reasonable run support. Losing streaks, winning streaks, whatever. To expect an ace to go out there and always break up a losing streak is a good way to set a guy up for inevitable criticism (something you are very good at).

[Brewers77]

Wow Mike, I love it. I think that might be my favorite post here ever. I may disagree with many of the same things you do. Many of the Yost and Sheets haters have the same reasoning and don't reall watch enough baseball to make such comparisons. So I try to argue but you did it with much better anger and wording.

 

I have given up this fight lately seeing that people who are complaining about the brewers over and over, now, either have not been a fan long or just do it to complain.

 

Life is really good right now and there is little to be upset about.

[bucksman4]

mikerollins...very detailed synopsis. Briefly, Sheets is not one of the top 3 pitchers in baseball, sorry but you have Brewers goggles on there, pal.

 

I can't believe I have to type this again, but I do not feel wins are the end-all be all, BUT I will say that some are quick to toss it out as a meaningless category if it does not back their points. Didn't our own GM use WINS as a key reason to get Suppan this off-season highlighting "Suppan has more wins than Zito in the last 3 years." Is Melvin unknowledgable about baseball, too?

 

There is something to a guy who has a winning mentality. It means I will bear down and shut a team down if that's what it takes to win.when your team needs it, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are on a "winning" team. Case in point, last year the Cubs were 66-96, YET Carlos Zambrano was 16-7. So....techically a good pitcher on a bad team (like people argue Ben Sheets was for many years) CAN actually win. What?!? Really? Yeah, it's called an opponent BA of .206. Someone who can shut the door on an opponent even when his own team can't score runs to back him up. A good pitcher finds a way to win...no matter what. Call me stupid, call me cluless on sabermetrics, or just plain ignorant if you will, but I know baseball and I know one cannot discount a meaningful stat like wins. Why would they make such a big deal about 300 win pitchers if it wasn't important?

[bball123h2]

As much as I love the debate about the "Ace", does it even matter? Ben Sheets is the best starting pitcher in a rotation of very solid starting pitchers, I'm glad he's on my team, and I try to never miss his starts.

Besides, aces are gritty battlers.

[jloos19]

There is something to a guy who has a winning mentality. It means I will bear down and shut a team down if that's what it takes to win.when your team needs it, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are on a "winning" team. Case in point, last year the Cubs were 66-96, YET Carlos Zambrano was 16-7. So....techically a good pitcher on a bad team (like people argue Ben Sheets was for many years) CAN actually win.

 

Do you EVER look at any stats? Zambrano went 16-7 with an ERA+ of 136, which is obviously very good. But the main reason he won 16 games on a bad team is because his team scored 5.83 runs a game during his starts.

 

On the other hand, Sheets in 2004 had an ERA+ of 154 which is basically God-like, and his team averaged a measly 3.54 runs a game! Hmm, that's over a 2 run difference in support. My guess is that may have contributed to his low win total more than not being "grittier" than Zambrano. Don't you remember his 1 hitter against the Angels in 9 innings, but didn't get the win cause we didn't score til the 18th?

[mikerollins]

This will be my last post on the topic. It's dumb. You are going to REALLY REALLY regret going here...but here goes.

 

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It means I will bear down and shut a team down if that's what it takes to win.when your team needs it, REGARDLESS of whether or not they are on a "winning" team. Case in point, last year the Cubs were 66-96, YET Carlos Zambrano was 16-7. So....techically a good pitcher on a bad team (like people argue Ben Sheets was for many years) CAN actually win. What?!? Really?

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Zambrano's 16 wins last year:

11-4

11-3

11-2

3-0

6-3

8-6

4-1

9-2

7-2

15-11

9-2

4-2

8-0

7-4

4-0

8-1

 

That's a total of 7.8 Runs per game on AVERAGE.

 

Sheets' 14 losses in 2004:

3-1

3-2

2-1

2-0

8-3

4-2

7-1

4-0

5-0

3-0

3-1

5-4

4-2

5-2

 

The Brewers scored 19 runs in his 14 losses. Yes. 19 runs in 14 losses. Including being shut out 4 times. That's an average of 1.35.

 

Not to mention that Sheets won games that year by scores of 1-0, 1-0, 2-0, and 3-1.

 

I went start by start and if the Brewers would have scored the same number of runs as the Cubs did last year in Sheets' 34 starts in 2004, he would have been...drumroll please.......

 

32-2. Not too shabby.

[rluzinski]

Do you EVER look at any stats? Zambrano went 16-7 with an ERA+ of 136, which is obviously very good. But the main reason he won 16 games on a bad team is because his team scored 5.83 runs a game during his starts.

 

He doesn't need to look at stats. Him and Sparky just "know baseball" .

[lukevan]

Zambrano must've forgotten how to be an ace this year.

 

Sheets is 3-0 in his last 4 starts, it seems he is remembering "how" to win baseball games.

[sgtcluels]

Lets go sheeters. May I go to bed dreaming of fast balls and curve balls pounding that meat.

[TheCrew07]

TLB,

Obviously it wasn't his fault, though his lack of production at the plate certainly didn't help. More a reflection of how I felt about the team's offense during his starts, not about his pitching performance. Thank you and please drive through!

[Team Canada]

I'm just glad I'm on mikerollins' side.

[mikerollins]

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I'm just glad I'm on mikerollins' side.

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It's a rare occurance huh TChttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[BrewCrewForever]

As long as Sheets is healthy is rules and is an ace. That is all there is to it. The guy is a stud pitcher.

[igor67]

Not to rain on your parade Mike because that's some great work, but Ben wouldn't have gotten credit for that many wins, so that's a little misleading, but It's hard not to say CY young award for that season.

[mikerollins]

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Not to rain on your parade Mike because that's some great work, but Ben wouldn't have gotten credit for that many wins, so that's a little misleading,

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Yea you're right and I didn't even do the part I did right. Plus the bullpen would factor in.....but the point remains the same.