Why Gwynn?

[lukevan]

Well, you might as well start Gross v. RHP against whom he might put up a .900 OPS, Dillon isn't an ideal lefty masher but I wouldn't mind him platooning in RF with Gross and Hart playing CF. However I think the Brewers have given indication (can't remember where) that they'd prefer to keep Hart in RF. I think Melvin & Co. are tired of playing chinese checkers with their fielders.

[gregmag]

You have it just the opposite. If his name was John Smith, there wouldn't be the venom towards him by some there is here.

 

Huh? Everybody I know loves Tony Gwynn Sr., and by all reports the son has inherited a lot of the father's great personal qualities. On what basis do you suggest that his good name does anything but help him? The only way in which your point makes sense is that, if his name was John Smith, there wouldn't be any reason for people to criticize him, because he wouldn't be getting opportunities he hadn't earned.

 

He would be seen as what he is, a low power, more speed good defensive OF, with the potential to hit for a decent average.

 

That's exactly how most of us who don't want him starting do see him. Nobody questions his defense. Offensively he's a liability, because his extreme lack of power means he has to hit .300 to have any chance of being useful. If he hits for a merely decent average -- say, .280 -- he'll drag the offense down, because his lack of power also means that he'll have a hard time drawing any walks. He's young enough that he could still experience a power spurt and render these criticisms moot, but if he stays at his present skill level, he's going to have a hard time hitting enough to be more than a 5th OF.

 

There have been hundreds of thsoe guys in MLB over the decades who've made nice careers, many of whom were starters at some time or another.

 

True enough. There have indeed been hundreds of bad hitters -- heck, thousands -- who have had careers. That doesn't mean any of them were good players. And yes, many of those bad hitters have gotten to start -- for bad teams. Again, I hope Gwynn gets better, and realistically, he could. He's a good guy; I'm pulling for him. But right now, he has no business getting significant action for a contending team.

 

Greg.

[TooLiveBrew]

I really like the idea of everyone settling into a defensive groove with TGJ in center.

 

I really like the idea of winning ballgames, which is why I fervently oppose TGJ getting any more than spotty, 'giving off-days' playing time. Gabe Gross's offense far outweighs any slight edge Gwynn has on D.

[ozzybourne]

this is a no win topic--gwynn vs gross.

 

is this the best the brewers can do for backups? especially knowing cameron will miss 1/6th of the season? add gapler to the mix and that's about as weak as any set of outfield backups in the major leagues. hope that none of the starters get hurt.

 

playing with what we have, i say give the 25 year old gwynn the nod. he spent several years in the minors with weeks,hardy,hart,and fielder and this may be good for him.

[lukevan]

Actually I'd say Gross is one of the better backup OFs in MLB, he'd be starting on a few teams.

[TooLiveBrew]

this may be good for him.

 

Of course it's good for him, but it's not going to be good for the Brewers imo.

[ozzybourne]

good for him, like improving his play to the level expected of a starting mlb outfielder, due in part to his history of success with the other players mentioned before in the minor leagues. remember, he is my choice here only because of a lack of better options--and i am presenting it here as a best case scenerio. hart and hall were part of this group and neither were mentioned with the WEEKS/HARDY/FIELDER trumpeting, yet both have turned out to be pretty good. maybe the same thing can happen to tony jr.

[TooLiveBrew]

he is my choice here only because of a lack of better options--and i am presenting it here as a best case scenerio.

 

I get ya, but imo Gabe Gross is a much better option

[logan82]

Why can't he improve his play in AAA where he can't affect W/L at the MLB level?

[gregmag]

hart and hall were part of this group and neither were mentioned with the WEEKS/HARDY/FIELDER trumpeting, yet both have turned out to be pretty good. maybe the same thing can happen to tony jr.

 

Well, Hall predated those other guys, and those of us who spend way too much time geeking out on the Brewers' minor league system have been talking about Hart for years -- Fielder and Weeks were ahead of everybody, but Hart was right there with Hardy and, um, Dave Krynzel. With all due respect, Krynzel's name in there suggests what's wrong with your logic: the fact that a guy played with good prospects doesn't make him a good prospect. Gwynn has never done anything in the minors remotely comparable to what Fielder, Weeks, Hardy, or Hart did.

 

Greg.

[giffted1]

Briggs is right on.

 

Take a look a former Brewer prospect Dave Krynzel. Krynzel was not an outstanding prospect. His career minor league numbers are nearly identical to Gwynn's in terms of average and obp. Krynzel had more power but was a less efficient base stealer and both were pretty good defenders. Gwynn was better offensively at higher levels in the minors than Krynzel (it you value opb. over slugging). Krynzel spent quite a bit of time near the top of the Power 50...Gwynn, not so much. Krynzel did not have great production in AAA or his father's name to help him, and he eventually got some major league playing time. Krynzel put up a measly .486 ops in his time with the Brewers but there wasn't the collective outrage shown that there is when Gwynn (who has done significantly better in the majors) gets major league at bats.

[logan82]

giffted1 wrote:

Take a look a former Brewer prospect Dave Krynzel. Krynzel was not an outstanding prospect. His career minor league numbers are nearly identical to Gwynn's in terms of average and obp. Krynzel had more power but was a less efficient base stealer and both were pretty good defenders. Gwynn was better offensively at higher levels in the minors than Krynzel (it you value opb. over slugging). Krynzel spent quite a bit of time near the top of the Power 50...Gwynn, not so much. Krynzel did not have great production in AAA or his father's name to help him, and he eventually got some major league playing time. Krynzel put up a measly .486 ops in his time with the Brewers but there wasn't the collective outrage shown that there is when Gwynn (who has done significantly better in the majors) gets major league at bats.

That's basically because we sucked at that time and didn't have better options. Now we are trying to compete and do have better options.

[endaround]

No Dave Krynzel actually proves how wrong Briggs is. Krynzel got some September call ups and got 54 PAs over three years. Gwynn will get that in two weeks. Krynzel was never given a roster spot, Gwynn was and now Gwynn is given a starting role.

[gregmag]

Funny we should both mention Krynzel on different sides of this argument . . . but I think you're off the mark. First of all, when Krynzel was with the organization, the Krynzel vs. Gwynn debate was a lively one. I thought Krynzel was a better prospect than Gwynn for quite a while, and I think I had decent reasons for believing that. Krynzel tantalized us with glimpses of quite a few skills -- hitting for average, a little pop, speed, defense. The problem with him, ultimately, was that he never put those skills together with any consistency. There were some indications that he was kind of a flake; I don't know whether or not that's fair, but for whatever reason he never developed.

 

The reason I think your Krynzel-Gwynn contrast doesn't hold water is that, aside from his skill set, the reason Krynzel got some love around here was that he was a first round draft pick. A lot of us were slow -- maybe too slow -- to give up on a skilled position player who got drafted #1 in an era when the Brewers generally knew what they were doing in the draft. That error, if it was an error, does nothing to support John's strange assertion that people are somehow harder on Gwynn because of his bloodlines. (Now, if you're saying people only think Gwynn got drafted #2 because of his bloodlines, that's fair; but that just comes back to our contrary point that Gwynn's name has worked too much in his favor from day 1.)

 

As for why the particular concern in this thread was never directed at Krynzel, it's very simple -- nobody ever handed Krynzel the starting CF job. If the Brewers had ever done that, a lot of us (even those of us who cut Krynzel a lot of slack) would have said the same things we're saying about Gwynn: He hasn't earned it; he isn't good enough.

 

Greg.

[rluzinski]

Yes, we don't want Gwynn to start because he's the son of a one of the nicest and respected baseball players ever. Makes a lot of sense.

[Bnowell4evr]

TGJ shouldn't play at all! He should be sent down to AAA where he belongs. Who needs Defense, Speed, and Clutch Hitting?

[bjkrautk]

For what it's worth, I think Tony looked pretty good out there today. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

1 game out of 25, but give credit where it's due: he did everything right at the plate today: getting on base, getting the bunt down, and getting the ball to the outfield to score the go-ahead run.

He even punctuated the win with a great defensive play.

[sweepscc]

He was clutch.

[rluzinski]

Why do people have to take it personally when someone doesn't think their favorite player should start? Gywnn had a great game, today. As a Brewer fan, I couldn't be more happy that he did. That said, a smart baseball fan knows not to let one game change their opinion of a player, good or bad. I don't think Gwynn will ever be good enough to justify starting him on an everyday basis. You think he will? Great. I hope you are right and I am wrong. There are players every year that prove the that projections aren't an exact science. Just don't be silly and act like one game of baseball proves anyone right or wrong about anything. One month doesn't even prove much. Didn't we learn that last year, though?

 

And again, someone needs to explain to me why Gwynn being the son of a well respected major leaguer would make some want to see him fail. Like how we all wanted to see Prince fail? Completely absurd. Like he's been so good that you can't imagine an unbiased observer NOT projecting him as a major league starter?

[Bnowell4evr]

I never singled any one out but if you're getting all pissy it shows that I touched a nerve. Theres a large majority of people on this site that hate TGJ so much they try to make their opinion of him not being a Major League caliber player a FACT when it's just an opinion. You can take your pecota and whatever projections there are and read em like a bible. The fact is TGJ is a smart team player who does anything to win and you need those type of guys on your team.

Ive never seen such a large portion of Brewer fans root so hard against a guy and its sickening. I know personally I'll be rooting for him to prove all you haters wrong during the first 25 games of the season. Congrats Milwaukee and TGJ on a great start to the season!

[homer]

You go, girl.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Why do people have to take it personally when someone doesn't think their favorite player should start?

I don't take it personally. It's just fun to poke fun of you about Gwynn because you get so mad about it. One game doesn't make Gwynn a better option than Gross in CF. But in my opinion he's the right guy to play CF when Cameron is suspended against RHP.

[sheethead]

Aren't we using our best pitchers? Why should it be any different in the outfield? Gross is better than both Gwynn and Kapler so he should be getting the playing time. Gwynn sucks.

Gabe Gross sucks, just as much as Gwynn. To use projections to state that Gwynn sucks more than Gross seems silly. Gabe Gross is not an average outfielder, and just because he's going to knock one out every 50 ABs doesnt make him the outright favorite to me. I think Ned should just go with the "hot hand" until Cameron is done with his suspension, then we don't have to worry about which sucky replacement is going to play. For the record, I have much less confidence in Gross than I do in Gwynn. Maybe its because I don't read enough projections.

[sheethead]

this may be good for him.

 

Of course it's good for him, but it's not going to be good for the Brewers imo.

It was good for win #1. Keep battling TGJ, make the decision tough on them. No matter how you hit, what your OBP is, if you don't have long-ball potential you just aren't going to be welcome to some people. Keep it up with the gritty, scrappy CLUTCH!

[giffted1]

And again, someone needs to explain to me why Gwynn being the son of a well respected major leaguer would make some want to see him fail. Like how we all wanted to see Prince fail? Completely absurd. Like he's been so good that you can't imagine an unbiased observer NOT projecting him as a major league starter?

Its not that people want Gwynn to fail. Its that some people think he's been given an unfair advantage because of his last name and claim this whenever given the opportunity which is absurd, IMO.

 

Why do people have to take it personally when someone doesn't think their favorite player should start?

It just gets old when people throw around these projections like they are fact.