Your Milwaukee Bucks: Where Team Camaraderie Happens

[trwi7]

Yes - Bogut and Redd have had negative differentials this season but Mo's does take the cake. And let's be honest - Mo is not even an average PG. His performance - or lack thereof - this season shows just how right I have been about him being a 2 pretending to be a 1.

Mo: -307

Redd: -268

Bogut: -251

 

The difference is minimal.

[don1481]

Mo: -307

Redd: -268

Bogut: -251

 

The difference is minimal.

 

-307/63 = -4.87

-268/62 = -4.32

-251/68 = -3.75

 

That's a 30% difference between Mo and Bogut. And over a full point differential. That's not what I call "minimal."

[trwi7]

Mo and Redd also play 3 more minutes with crappier players. Again, it's not a shock their is bad.

[don1481]

Mo and Redd also play 3 more minutes with crappier players. Again, it's not a shock their is bad.

If Mo was really as "valuable" as implied here and elsewhere, this differential wouldn't be this bad. Maybe theirs is worse because Bogut's a more valuable player to the Bucks... just a thought.

[trwi7]

If Mo was really as "valuable" as implied here and elsewhere, this differential wouldn't be this bad. Maybe theirs is worse because Bogut's a more valuable player to the Bucks... just a thought.

 

Again I'm not saying Mo is some MVP guy that we can't get rid of. It's just that the backcourt gets way too much crap for this team being bad. Yeah they shoot a lot but they're GOOD shooters. Wouldn't it make sense for them to shoot a lot? They are terrible on defense though but the problems go far beyond Mo and Redd. Simmons, Gadzuric, Bell, Kohl, Walter, Burr those guys are much bigger problems than two of our three above average players.

 

Yeah only 25% of your active roster and 60% of your starting lineup isn't crap and you expect to win? Well, good luck with that.

[don1481]

Again I'm not saying Mo is some MVP guy that we can't get rid of. It's just that the backcourt gets way too much crap for this team being bad. Yeah they shoot a lot but they're GOOD shooters. Wouldn't it make sense for them to shoot a lot? They are terrible on defense though but the problems go far beyond Mo and Redd. Simmons, Gadzuric, Bell, Kohl, Walter, Burr those guys are much bigger problems than two of our three above average players.

 

Yeah only 25% of your active roster and 60% of your starting lineup isn't crap and you expect to win? Well, good luck with that.

I don't think Mo Williams gets enough fingers pointed at him for the team being as bad as it is. Mo is not the shooting guard - your argument for him taking a ton of shots further backs up the point that he's a 2 guard masquerading as a 1. Redd is, however, the shooting guard, and should be taking shots, although it should be noted that if he's taking an inordinate percentage of the team's shots, the Bucks generally will lose because the ball's not moving around.

 

I don't expect to win with the roster the Bucks currently have; however, I do expect pieces that do not fit in Milwaukee that can be traded be sent far, far away. And to me - the only piece that the Bucks have which doesn't fit into their plans that they'll get any value on flipping is Mo Williams. He has value to playoff teams looking for a 6th man or shooting guard to provide scoring and occasionally serve as a distributor. I expect a Mo Williams trade to be done this summer, ideally prior to the draft, for hopefully a mid-late first rounder.

 

You're right, though, the Simmons and Gadzuric contracts are atrocious. So atrocious, in fact, that the only thing that the Bucks could get in return is a bad apple who would most likely do nothing but tear that locker room apart, like he did in POR and is doing in NY. I wonder seriously if either of them would accept a buyout...

 

I expect the Bucks to target a PG in the draft this year... if they land the Beasley lottery I would expect them to do a draft & trade (a la Nowitzki) to someone in exchange for the best available college PG. A top-end PG makes the rest of his team look great - look at what Deron Williams and Chris Paul have done with relatively limited surrounding talent in Utah and NO. Having pieces such as Bogut and Redd in place would give the new PG passing options.

[trwi7]

I don't think Mo Williams gets enough fingers pointed at him for the team being as bad as it is. Mo is not the shooting guard - your argument for him taking a ton of shots further backs up the point that he's a 2 guard masquerading as a 1.

 

Answer my question. Who exactly is he supposed to pass to? He has the second best shooting percentage on this team, the only other good players on this team that you would want shooting are Redd and Bogut and he shoots better than Redd so I don't really have a problem with him shooting as much as he does since there's basically nobody to pass to.

[jason21nl]

I'm asking this question because I don't know. Early in the season weren't the Bucks winning when Mo was dishing out more assists instead of scoring high?

[trwi7]

I'm asking this question because I don't know. Early in the season weren't the Bucks winning when Mo was dishing out more assists instead of scoring high?

 

They were winning because "the others" decided to show up for a few games. Then they decided they were going to suck some more. Mo took 13.2 shots on average during that stretch and has averaged 14.2 this season.

He averages 14.39 shots in losses and 14.5 shots in wins. Again if we get games where one or two of Yi, Simmons, Villanueva or Mason step up then we have a fighting chance. If they don't then teams are going to beat us because their talent is far superior.

[don1481]

I'm asking this question because I don't know. Early in the season weren't the Bucks winning when Mo was dishing out more assists instead of scoring high?

 

Yup. During October, he averaged roughly 15 and 8. And each month thereafter, his assists have gone down and up until this month, his scoring went up.

 

Answer my question. Who exactly is he supposed to pass to? He has the second best shooting percentage on this team, the only other good players on this team that you would want shooting are Redd and Bogut and he shoots better than Redd so I don't really have a problem with him shooting as much as he does since there's basically nobody to pass to.

He may shoot better than Redd but again - that does not necessarily mean that he should be taking such a large percentage of the shots. As a point guard, his job is to distribute the ball to other options and make them look good. A good point guard, like a good quarterback, makes his teammates look better than they may otherwise be.

 

As far as options go... I'd consider players such as Yi, Villanueva, Mason, Bell, and even Simmons tolerable 3rd through 6th options, if we exclude Mo from being an "option." Mo himself should at best be the #3 option for that team, behind Redd and Bogut. Averaging 24 and 6 for a PG over an entire month (January) is unacceptable if the team hopes to win. Again - look at Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Neither of those teams have much beyond a couple of other bona fide scoring options besides the PG, yet both teams are quite successful. A legitimate PG may put the Bucks far closer to being competitive than many people believe.

 

 

EDIT:

 

He averages 14.39 shots in losses and 14.5 shots in wins. Again if we get games where one or two of Yi, Simmons, Villanueva or Mason step up then we have a fighting chance. If they don't then teams are going to beat us because their talent is far superior.

But what are his assist totals in wins versus losses? There's the real issue. If Mo's not passing the ball effectively, then the Bucks have no chance.

[trwi7]

As far as options go... I'd consider players such as Yi, Villanueva, Mason, Bell, and even Simmons tolerable 3rd through 6th options, if we exclude Mo from being an "option." Mo himself should at best be the #3 option for that team, behind Redd and Bogut. Averaging 24 and 6 for a PG over an entire month (January) is unacceptable if the team hopes to win. Again - look at Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Neither of those teams have much beyond a couple of other bona fide scoring options besides the PG, yet both teams are quite successful. A legitimate PG may put the Bucks far closer to being competitive than many people believe.

Tolerable 3-6 options? Is the plan to win or are we tanking? They are awful options. As for his 24/6 month again who is going to score? The only players who shot better are Simmons and Mason, are you comfortable with them shooting 15 times each? Bogut shot only 43% in February so he wasn't shooting well either.

[trwi7]

But what are his assist totals in wins versus losses? There's the real issue. If Mo's not passing the ball effectively, then the Bucks have no chance.

No if others other than Mo, Bogut and Redd don't step up we don't have a chance. What's so hard for you to understand about that? We can't play 3 on 5 all game and since they need a break sometimes we're 1 on 5 or 2 on 5.

[danzig6767]

Again I'm not saying Mo is some MVP guy that we can't get rid of. It's just that the backcourt gets way too much crap for this team being bad. Yeah they shoot a lot but they're GOOD shooters. Wouldn't it make sense for them to shoot a lot? They are terrible on defense though but the problems go far beyond Mo and Redd. Simmons, Gadzuric, Bell, Kohl, Walter, Burr those guys are much bigger problems than two of our three above average players.

 

Yeah only 25% of your active roster and 60% of your starting lineup isn't crap and you expect to win? Well, good luck with that.

 

 

You're right, though, the Simmons and Gadzuric contracts are atrocious. So atrocious, in fact, that the only thing that the Bucks could get in return is a bad apple who would most likely do nothing but tear that locker room apart, like he did in POR and is doing in NY. I wonder seriously if either of them would accept a buyout...

 

I expect the Bucks to target a PG in the draft this year... if they land the Beasley lottery I would expect them to do a draft & trade (a la Nowitzki) to someone in exchange for the best available college PG. A top-end PG makes the rest of his team look great - look at what Deron Williams and Chris Paul have done with relatively limited surrounding talent in Utah and NO. Having pieces such as Bogut and Redd in place would give the new PG passing options.

1. You forgot another person in the atrocious contract group and that's Michael Redd. He is maybe a 10 million a year value player that is due 16/17/18 million the next three years. Redd is paid a max contract like a superstar, yet is nowhere near a superstar. He does one thing well and that's it, he scores points. Besides that, Redd is a poor defender, poor leader, he doesn't pass well because he can only dribble with his head down staring at the floor, he doesn't rebound well, and in close games Redd has a permanent choke collar on.

2. You say, the Bucks would be so much better if they had D.Williams or Chris Paul at PG. Well duh, that's like saying it's profound to think the Bucks would be way better if they had Garnett or Kobe instead of Redd or Villanueva. Chris Paul is a legit MVP candidate and and one of the best players in the NBA, not just a great PG. Put him on almost any team and they instantly get much better, same goes for Williams. The biggest mistake the Bucks franchise has made in a long time is taking Bogut instead of Paul. That was their chance to land the franchise type player that nearly every very good team has, but we took the wrong guy.

3. I agree with you that Mo needs to go, but not for the main reasons you think and i also think Redd has to be shipped out with Mo. This season will be the second year in a row the Bucks will end up being the second worst defensive team in the NBA. Nothing comes close to being a bigger problem player wise for the Bucks than their yearly horrid defense, terrible defensive teams go nowhere in the NBA. The largest culprit in the Bucks terrible defense is their backcourt, neither Mo/Redd have any ability to stop penetration which breaks down any defense. They are the disaster duo at "trying" to get over/around screens or defend the pick and roll. Both are soft and pure finesse. Having a pair of soft turnstiles who combined make about 26-27 million a year needs to end ASAP. I don't even care if we get ideal return on both, i just want them gone so the franchise can move forward.

4. The last and most important need then is a star, regardless of the position that guy plays. Nearly every title winner the last 25 years had a star player and pretty much every real contender in the current NBA has a star. Trying to win and compete against teams with a stud player along with a few other solid pieces is like trying to race someone while wearing ankle weights. Of course they aren't easy to get or find, but it is a must.

 

[trwi7]

Thank you danzig I'm fine with shipping Mo out. It's not because of his offense it's because of his defense. Redd can go with him, if a team wants to take a bad contract to get either one then the bad contract can go too.

[don1481]

Tolerable 3-6 options? Is the plan to win or are we tanking? They are awful options. As for his 24/6 month again who is going to score? The only players who shot better are Simmons and Mason, are you comfortable with them shooting 15 times each?

 

I'm comfortable with the two of them combining for 15 shots/game, which is what we'd like out of our 3-spot.

No if others other than Mo, Bogut and Redd don't step up we don't have a chance. What's so hard for you to understand about that? We can't play 3 on 5 all game and since they need a break sometimes we're 1 on 5 or 2 on 5.

We're 1 on 5 or 2 on 5 because players realize that Mo isn't going to pass. Period. I would love to see how many of Mo's assists come on 3 pointers to Redd compared to the rest of them. That would probably paint a better picture of the real situation - the ball isn't getting passed around enough.

 

1. You forgot another person in the atrocious contract group and that's Michael Redd. He is maybe a 10 million a year value player that is due 16/17/18 million the next three years. Redd is paid a max contract like a superstar, yet is nowhere near a superstar. He does one thing well and that's it, he scores points. Besides that, Redd is a poor defender, poor leader, he doesn't pass well because he can only dribble with his head down staring at the floor, he doesn't rebound well, and in close games Redd has a permanent choke collar on.

I didn't mention Redd's contract because, quite frankly, it's completely untradeable, unless we want complete garbage in return. And, as we saw with the nixed Randolph trade, I really would rather not go that route.

2. You say, the Bucks would be so much better if they had D.Williams or Chris Paul at PG. Well duh, that's like saying it's profound to think the Bucks would be way better if they had Garnett or Kobe instead of Redd or Villanueva. Chris Paul is a legit MVP candidate and and one of the best players in the NBA, not just a great PG. Put him on almost any team and they instantly get much better, same goes for Williams. The biggest mistake the Bucks franchise has made in a long time is taking Bogut instead of Paul. That was their chance to land the franchise type player that nearly every very good team has, but we took the wrong guy.

I'd rather not have Kobe, thank you very much. Kobe's overall bog-hogging and inability to play as part of a team has been well-documented. Granted, this year he's playing a bit more like a team player but... that's also because he has a decent supporting cast, which will get better when Bynum and Gasol get back.

 

Likewise, as we saw with Garnett in MIN, he didn't do so hot - in terms of team w/l record - without the strong surrounding team he has now in BOS.

 

As you point out, though, a high end PG does make a lot more difference for exactly the reasons that I've outlined before. And as I said before, hopefully they can find a better PG in the draft this year.

 

I could go on and on about Redd and Williams' collective inability to play defense but that would probably put me here at my keyboard through tomorrow morning. As I said - a team looking for a 6th man/scoring option would be fine with Williams because that's all he can really provide - some instant offense.

 

4. The last and most important need then is a star, regardless of the position that guy plays. Nearly every title winner the last 25 years had a star player and pretty much every real contender in the current NBA has a star. Trying to win and compete against teams with a stud player along with a few other solid pieces is like trying to race someone while wearing ankle weights. Of course they aren't easy to get or find, but it is a must.

As a counter-point to this, look at Miami after the Shaq trade and before Wade was shelved for the year. Wade and Marion both qualify as stars IMO, especially Wade. Yet the Heat were still atrocious. Look also at New Jersey with Jason Kidd prior to him being shipped to DAL - a decent team but one that wasn't a legitimate contender, even with a "star" like Kidd. What about KG when he was in MIN? What about Ray Allen in SEA? A "star" alone does not make the team. As you do say, a star plus a few other solid pieces can lead to a competitive team, but as we've seen in Denver with AI and 'Melo, stars and player that "should" combine to make a great team do not necessarily do so.

 

The biggest mistake the Bucks franchise has made in a long time is taking Bogut instead of Paul. That was their chance to land the franchise type player that nearly every very good team has, but we took the wrong guy.

No - the Bucks' biggest mistake was not trading up in the 2003 draft to get Wade. Drafting a PG that they knew had a pre-existing condition that could turn out to be - and has proved to be - career-threatening was not smart at all. I'd honestly say that Bogut is one of the better C's in the Eastern Conference and remember - he's only 23. IMO a solid C is harder to find than a high-caliber PG. Especially when you're looking at the top of the draft. While I'm sure that one of those two - Paul or D. Williams - would probably have us in the playoffs this year (probably a 4-5 seed), I don't think that the Bucks would be that close to being bona fide contenders due to the lack of an inside scoring presence. We saw it all too well with George Karl's Bucks - live by the jump shot, die by the jump shot.

[twobrewers]

There are 13 players in the NBA averaging more assists than Mo Williams. So there are plenty of point guards who are worse.

 

I would honestly put Mo Williams in the top 10 in NBA point guards. (Not because he is that good, buy find a quality point guard is really really hard to do!)

 

My point is thus, Mo Williams isn't a horrible point guard. But I would prefer his 6 assist and 18 points at the SG spot. Mo Williams and Michael Redd are both horrible on defense. I'll give up Redd's extra 5 points per game and take Mo Williams assists from the SG spot.

 

Redd does not make the Bucks a better team. (And his contract is worse)

[don1481]

There are 13 players in the NBA averaging more assists than Mo Williams. So there are plenty of point guards who are worse.

And there are at least 13 that are better, IMO. But more about that later in this post

 

 

I would prefer his 6 assist and 18 points at the SG spot. Mo Williams and Michael Redd are both horrible on defense. I'll give up Redd's extra 5 points per game and take Mo Williams assists from the SG spot.

I agree with that statement, hands-down. I cannot emphasize enough how mis-cast Mo Williams is as a PG. His ability to shoot is masked by his inability to pass and recognize matchups. And play defense, but we've all beaten that to death here.

 

I would honestly put Mo Williams in the top 10 in NBA point guards. (Not because he is that good, buy find a quality point guard is really really hard to do!)

My top thirteen:

 

Chris Paul

Deron Williams

Steve Nash

Jason Kidd

Baron Davis

Chauncey Billups

Tony Parker

Allen Iverson (tough call whether to call him a SG or PG, either way he's still better as a PG than Mo Williams)

Andre Miller

Brandon Roy

Jose Alderon

Raymond Felton

 

Basically my point is that I can list off quite a few PGs who are better than Mo Williams. I'd say he's at the bottom of the middle third as a PG. He's that mis-cast.

 

Redd does not make the Bucks a better team. (And his contract is worse)

I agree with this. Redd's contract is so bad it is virtually untradeable.

[twobrewers]

Allen Iverson (tough call whether to call him a SG or PG, either way he's still better as a PG than Mo Williams)

Andre Miller

Brandon Roy

Jose Alderon

Raymond Felton

Alright, I can't argue at all with anyone above these names. They are all the obvious choices.

Allen Iverson is the shooting guard. Anthony Carter is Denver's point guard.

Andre Miller is pretty much a push in my eyes.

Brandon Roy is the shooting guard. Steve Blake is the point guard.

Calderon might be better. I like his game. But, if you have Calderon - you have to consider TJ Ford. (Ford is getting a few starts now)

And lastly, I'll take Mo over Felton.

 

[don1481]

Allen Iverson is the shooting guard. Anthony Carter is Denver's point guard.

Andre Miller is pretty much a push in my eyes.

Brandon Roy is the shooting guard. Steve Blake is the point guard.

Calderon might be better. I like his game. But, if you have Calderon - you have to consider TJ Ford. (Ford is getting a few starts now)

And lastly, I'll take Mo over Felton.

 

 

Brandon Roy is a combo guard. Blake may be called the "point guard" but really - Roy plays more of a sort of Devin Harris role and therefore is relevant to this discussion.

If we're going to count Ford, I'd say he's a better PG than Mo. Much better overall court vision. Lousier shooter, yes, but he does make his teammates in TOR look much better.

I'd take Felton over Mo; his upside as a PG is significantly higher plus he's got better court vision right now.

Andre Miller is underrated by many, many people. I'd rather have him here than Mo any day.

Speaking of Devin Harris... I'd rather have him at PG than Mo as well.

 

So IMO there's still a number of PGs I'd rather have than Mo without hesitation.

[danzig6767]

I didn't mention Redd's contract because, quite frankly, it's completely untradeable, unless we want complete garbage in return. And, as we saw with the nixed Randolph trade, I really would rather not go that route.

Redd isn't Gadzuric/Simmons/Bell which is who we'd have traded for Randolph. While Redd is very overrated and vastly overpaid, he isn't three bench scrubs with terrible long term contracts. On a team like say Cleveland or a few other contenders, he could help them win because they have talent, leadership, someone to take shots late in close games, and defense on their teams already. The return might not be as great as some may wish, but shedding him and his contract would be well worth it. Redd needs to go.

I'd rather not have Kobe, thank you very much. Kobe's overall bog-hogging and inability to play as part of a team has been well-documented. Granted, this year he's playing a bit more like a team player but... that's also because he has a decent supporting cast, which will get better when Bynum and Gasol get back.

Kobe isn't exactly the most likable guy, but he's easily one of the best players in the NBA. If you actually wouldn't want him on the Bucks, all i can say is i'm glad you're on a message board and nowhere near a GM role for the Bucks.

 

Likewise, as we saw with Garnett in MIN, he didn't do so hot - in terms of team w/l record - without the strong surrounding team he has now in BOS.

Well duh. No NBA player is good enough to lead a team to elite status without any talent around them, Wade and Garnett are prime examples of this. That doesn't mean a legit star or two aren't easily the most important thing an NBA team needs if it wants to become a real contender to get far in the playoffs. Garnett/Pierce/Allen aren't all stars/franchise players, but Garnett is and the other two are on the next tier and those three have lead a group of castoffs and spare parts to the best record in the NBA.

As a counter-point to this, look at Miami after the Shaq trade and before Wade was shelved for the year. Wade and Marion both qualify as stars IMO, especially Wade. Yet the Heat were still atrocious. Look also at New Jersey with Jason Kidd prior to him being shipped to DAL - a decent team but one that wasn't a legitimate contender, even with a "star" like Kidd. What about KG when he was in MIN? What about Ray Allen in SEA? A "star" alone does not make the team. As you do say, a star plus a few other solid pieces can lead to a competitive team, but as we've seen in Denver with AI and 'Melo, stars and player that "should" combine to make a great team do not necessarily do so.

The only two players you listed that i'd consider a legit star/franchise player is Wade and Garnett. Kidd is to old and i said on a different board that Dallas would regret that trade. He's a terrible shooter, is a pass only PG because he shoots so poorly, and Devin Harris is a better defender. Marion is a very good player, but a second tier guy, not a franchise player. Ray Allen is just a slightly better version of Michael Redd. C.Anthony is only a media star, the guy defends like Big Dog, he's just a better scoring version of Glenn. Like i said above, even though franchise players are essential to be an elite team, obviously they can't wins games by themselves.

 

No - the Bucks' biggest mistake was not trading up in the 2003 draft to get Wade. Drafting a PG that they knew had a pre-existing condition that could turn out to be - and has proved to be - career-threatening was not smart at all.

Can't agree at all. You have no idea if Riley would have traded down given how highly he thought of Wade, but there is zero doubt we could have drafted Chris Paul. Now i'm not saying Harris/Kohl completely brainfarted because most GM's would have drafted Bogut since we had no center and we already had TJ/Mo, but a situation like that is where a great GM would have proved his eye for talent. The ability to see Paul was special talent and a franchise player, while Bogut was neither. We draft Paul instead and trade Ford, the Bucks franchise is in vastly better shape.

 

I'd honestly say that Bogut is one of the better C's in the Eastern Conference and remember - he's only 23.

That's largely because there are almost no decent centers in the East, don't forget that a nothing special at all Magloire made an All-Star game some years ago. A center doesn't even have to be a special player at all to be a top center in the East. They are like catchers in MLB, you could be one of the top catchers in the NL and not even be a top 50 player in baseball.

IMO a solid C is harder to find than a high-caliber PG. Especially when you're looking at the top of the draft.

Who cares if centers are harder to find? Are you actually implying that you'd rather have Bogut than Paul or Williams? Paul is a franchise player and top 5-7ish player in the whole NBA, Bogut might not be a top 30-40 player in the NBA. Even if the Hornets/Jazz had nothing at center, if you called them and asked if they'd trade you Williams or Paul for Bogut, both teams would laugh before hanging up and check to make sure it's not April Fools day.

 

While I'm sure that one of those two - Paul or D. Williams - would probably have us in the playoffs this year (probably a 4-5 seed), I don't think that the Bucks would be that close to being bona fide contenders due to the lack of an inside scoring presence. We saw it all too well with George Karl's Bucks - live by the jump shot, die by the jump shot.

You don't have to have a center to score inside and win. If we had drafted Paul/Williams, then the next task would have been to find anyone that helped inside, be it a PF or center and add defenders to the roster. Very few of the better teams in the NBA have a great center, most get their big man scoring from the power forward position and their center's main job is to rebound and defend. Look at Paul/Williams, their big man scoring comes from Boozer and West. One guy was drafted 18th overall and the other in the second round. Detroit hasn't got scoring at center in ages. The Suns scoring inside came from Stoudemire, drafted 9th overall. Dallas has won for years with a jump shooting PF drafted 11th.

 

Bogut is my favorite player on the Bucks, the teams best player overall, and last guy i'd consider trading. With that said, one big reason the Bucks stink is that Andrew is our best player. To be a top 8-10 team in the NBA, Bogut should be at most our second best player, maybe third best. If you look at the top 10 teams in the NBA, all have at least one player better than him, some have two or three. Maybe if Andrew can ever learn to make a shot farther than 3-4 feet from th rim, he could be a top shelf second tier player. Learn to make a midrange jumper like almost all top bigs can, a turn around post up jumper, more posts moves besides that flip hook, and actually make free throws, defenses would stop sagging way off him and daring Andrew to shoot. I'd also like a bit better rebound, his rebound rate isn't bad, but it's nothing special either.

[danzig6767]

I don't think Mo Williams gets enough fingers pointed at him for the team being as bad as it is.

While we may not agree exactly why Mo should be traded, i'm no doubt in the camp he should go along with Redd. With that said, you vastly overrate how much Mo is the reason the Bucks don't win more. A few weeks ago Mo missed five games via injury, the Bucks went 1-4 and a truly amazing thing happened. As poor a defender as Mo is, incredibly the defense was even worse with him out. The defense got lit up in four of the losses to field goal FG% between 50-60 percent. When your defense gets even worse with Mo out, nothing else needs to be said about how deep the defensive problems on the Bucks are. Also, the Bucks this year are 2-7 in games Mo missed and last year were 4-10, that's 6-17. The Bucks stink not mainly because of Mo, they stink because their roster has been woefully short on talent overall the last two years and this year especially.

 

If we're going to count Ford, I'd say he's a better PG than Mo. Much better overall court vision. Lousier shooter, yes, but he does make his teammates in TOR look much better.

Yea, Ford shows every game how he makes his teammates so much better by the team being 20-12 in games he missed and 16-25 in games he played this year.

 

 

As far as options go... I'd consider players such as Yi, Villanueva, Mason, Bell, and even Simmons tolerable 3rd through 6th options, if we exclude Mo from being an "option."

You're kidding right? The last few months, Yi for whatever reason lost every bit of usefulness in nearly every facet of the game. On a good team with playoffs in their future, Yi would never get off the bench except for garbage time. Villanueva is a 6'10 PF that is addicted to hanging by the three point line and bricking jumpers, he's shooting 42% on the season. Mason just might be the worst starting SF in the NBA and on a good team, he might be a decent option off the bench for 10 minutes a game. Bell is shooting 38%, he's a walking bricklayer. Simmons is shooting 39% and my grandma might have more athletic ability left than Simmons after all those surgeries. The above scrub brigade are a huge reason the Bucks are 24-48 this year and the last thing they should be doing is shooting more and denting more rims.

 

Again - look at Chris Paul and Deron Williams. Neither of those teams have much beyond a couple of other bona fide scoring options besides the PG, yet both teams are quite successful.

What? Paul shoots almost 17 times a game and has West/Stojakovic, both of which are so much better than our starters at PF/SF it's a not funny joke. Williams has Boozer who makes Yi/CV look like garbage found in the trash bin, Williams himself who averages 20, and Okur is a solid center. Thankfully for their teams, they aren't just mainly passing point guards. Now obviously both PG's are vastly better than Mo and are franchise players, but both teams defend way way better and have much superior overall talent. Sadly, we could have either guy if Harris hadn't put to much value on size/need over talent.

 

A legitimate PG may put the Bucks far closer to being competitive than many people believe.

Unless you mean an elite PG in the franchise player mold like Paul/Williams/Nash etc, which every team lacking one would get way better with, how would just a solid PG make this current roster/team much better?

 

The defense has been either as bad or worse when Ivey/Bell played PG in games Mo missed. Besides Memphis, the Bucks are the worst defensive team in the NBA and Bell/Ivey were signed partially for defense they play, yet the defense is still deplorable when they fill in for Mo. Redd is a bad defender and has no other skills besides scoring and choking in the clutch. Villanueva just might be the worst defender i've ever seen and i'm not exaggerating. If we don't have the worst bench in the NBA, it's close to it. We have nobody on the roster even close to being starter quality at SF. Villanueva shoots a terrible percentage for a PF because he treats the paint on offense like it comes with herpes and he couldn't guard a statue. Hopefully Yi is just worn out and will look better next year because he's shot 36/42/30 percent the last three months, looks completely lost on defense, and can't hold on to the ball in the paint if a feather touched him. The final kicker is our head coach looks to be in way over his head.

 

The Bucks have only three players on the roster who do anything well and then tons of bad fitting overpaid crap. The talent overall is terrible compared to good teams. We have nobody close to being a franchise player. We big big time lack defenders. The roster is loaded with soft players. None of our three best players is anything special and two of them ignore defense. The team has no leaders. This roster doesn't just need a new PG and a little tweaking, it needs a nuclear bomb dropped on most of it.

[don1481]

The team has no leaders. This roster doesn't just need a new PG and a little tweaking, it needs a nuclear bomb dropped on most of it.

Which pretty much sums up my point from page 1 of this thread. I just like to single Mo out because, well, he's beyond aggravating to watch.

Speaking of - anyone have any updates about Scott Williams and his sudden "disappearance" after singling out Mo and Redd on-air for being the cause of the Bucks' terrible season due to their lack of caring?

[davego]

I'm with Danzig on this. No need for me to restate how he put it. I'll add this; there are parts on this team that could be helpful in the right role. If Mo was your 6th man (Ricky Pierce role) he would have more value. Dez could play 12-15 minutes as the 'D' guy off the bench. I'm not sure what to do with CV. Again, I think he could help some teams, but he is so miscast in Milwaukee. Maybe that is the best way to label what Larry Harris has done. He has brought in some players, but with little regard of how they fit together.

 

The next GM has (IMO) a good 3-year project in front of him...good luck!

[twobrewers]

I'll just add that I am surprised by the love Yi gets.

 

Bogut is the only player I want to keep. Yi is tall - but doesn't really rebound, block shots or post up very well. So that pretty much leaves him as a shooter. And he isn't that great of a shooter either.

 

Rumor today has Doug Collins turning the Bucks down again. And Herb Kohl wants to bring in Walsh and Larry Brown as coach.

[Gobias Industries]

I'm willing to give Yi one more year. His start was way too promising to give up on.

 

I'm sure he'll hardly get any rest though with the Olympics coming up, so he probably won't be able to work on his upper body as much as they'd like.

 

Doug Collins just did us a favor, what has he ever done to deserve both positions. And didn't Walsh go to the Knicks? I would definitely be down with Brown as coach though.