Is 2008 Yost's last shot? Latest: What are we doing? I am getting worried! (reply #212)

[logan82]

TooLiveBrew wrote:

Not meaning just BF.net, but I wonder how much of a role all the public distaste for Yost played in Melvin "forgetting" to announce this. I'm guessing right around the time of the two Attanasio votes of confidence (Oct. '07), this was ironed out. Very savvy play by Attanasio & Melvin.

I am sure it played some role. At the very least I am sure Melvin was not looking forward to telling the press. Like he said though, people get fired in the middle of their contracts all the time. All this really means is that Yost is guaranteed the money for 2009, not the job. I think people have settled a bit since the end of last season. If this had been announced when it happened, I think people here would have flipped.

[TooLiveBrew]

If this had been announced when it happened, I think people here would have flipped.

 

Like fish on cement, gasping for water.

[jimmyjeromehardy7]

Do you think Yost was sitting at home saying to himself a few days after it was picked up, "Hey they didn't announce my extension yet." so he call Doug -

 

Ned - Hey Doug, do you want me to come in so we can announce my extension to the media.

 

Doug - Hey Ned, I have bad phone reception here, I will have to call you back later.

 

Click.

[don1481]

I wish they would have announced this around October last year. I think this board would have exploded, literally.

 

Yeah, and FTJ would have sent his Tic-Tac-Toe playing chicken loose on the field to chase Ned around.

Now the big question is: Why did this not get released sooner? Was DM afraid of the backlash?

[Ennder]

I'm not a big Yost supporter but I think the flaws in his managing are things that can be fixed with experience so I'm not overly upset with the move. I just hope he is still on a relatively short leash.

[adambr2]

Doesn't mean much, but at this rate Yost is going to manage as long as Bobby Cox, only without the whole winning baseball games tradition thing.

[Oldcity]

I agree that this doesn't mean much of anything, though I also enjoyed that quote from Melvin.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"I think the flaws in his managing are things that can be fixed with experience so I'm not overly upset with the move. "

 

So, you don't consider him "experienced" yet? It's been 5 long years!

 

I'm not baiting you or anything, I just wonder. It seems Ned is pretty rigid when it comes to such by-the-book managerial commandments as The-one-designated-as-the-official-closer-shall-not-enter-a-game-without-the-lead-in-road-games-until-the-the-9th, and Counsell-shall-enter-the-game-as-a-defensive-replacement-and-ruin-the-offense-as-early-as-the-7th-inning, or his designated catcher nonsense.

 

Here's a piece from Friday's Tom Haudricourt article, that tells us all we need to know:

 

"Even had Melvin not picked up the option on his contract, Yost said it wouldn't have altered his approach to the 2008 season. "It doesn't change anything that I'm going to do," Yost said. "No manager likes (going into the final year of a contract) but I'm not going to do things differently, whether he picked up my option or didn't pick up my option.""

 

Do you see him changing his style anytime soon, ESPECIALLY since Mark keeps giving him votes of confidence and extending his contract? Ned's questionable decisions not only don't endanger his job, he seems to be rewarded for them, so why change? He's staying the course, and that's that.

 

Ned driving this team, inspires about as much confidence as Lary Sorenson driving my taxi.

 

"...at this rate Yost is going to manage as long as Bobby Cox, only without the whole winning baseball games tradition thing."

 

LOVE this, adam! Dollars down: Who lasts longer as an inept Brewer manager, because the owner is comfortable with him, despite the lack of playoff appearances? Phil "The Best in the Business" Garner, or Ned "Attendance is up" Yost?

[Ennder]

So, you don't consider him "experienced" yet? It's been 5 long years!

Some people are slow learners~. Like I said I'm not a big Yost fan, I'd rather they had fired him at the end of last season. However I'd rather have a coach that struggles with in game moves than one who the team doesn't support, who leaves pitchers out too long to ruin young arms, who refuses to play young guys even when they are on the roster (dodgers) etc. I really wish Yost would take a class on in game management or something but that is the kind of thing I feel does grow with experience.

 

Oh yeah and he has to stop doing that little grimace/smile thing when his boneheaded moves don't work out, that little thing makes me want to smash the TV.

[whynotthebrewers]

So, you don't consider him "experienced" yet? It's been 5 long years!

Some people are slow learners~. Like I said I'm not a big Yost fan, I'd rather they had fired him at the end of last season. However I'd rather have a coach that struggles with in game moves than one who the team doesn't support, who leaves pitchers out too long to ruin young arms, who refuses to play young guys even when they are on the roster (dodgers) etc. I really wish Yost would take a class on in game management or something but that is the kind of thing I feel does grow with experience.

 

Oh yeah and he has to stop doing that little grimace/smile thing when his boneheaded moves don't work out, that little thing makes me want to smash the TV.

I just struggle with people the majority of Yost bashers using the reason of struggling with in game moves. All managers do some of the same things that Yost does and that includes the ones that are seen as winners as well as the bad managers. Some decisions work and some don't. But in the big picture, having more talent than the other team is the thing that decides whether or not you go on to the playoffs and win a title. Yost could win the world series this year and then the Yost bashers would simply say it was the talent that covered up his mistakes. It can't be both ways.

 

Belichek wasn't a good coach in Cleveland and now is a god. Phil Jackson has been average with the lakers and now they get Gasol and they are contenders. In baseball Larussa had bad teams and then moved on to St Louis and had some great players who helped him win. I could go on and on. But when people constantly bash Yost, it seems like a waste of time to me. If the brewers were able to add a stud pitcher and a couple position players like other bigger markets they would probably win more games and that doesn't make yost a genius. This issue is overblown and having our young players play better is the bottom line. Pitch well and our team will be fine seeing we should hit very well. Yost has little to do with any of that.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"I really wish Yost would take a class on in game management or something but that is the kind of thing I feel does grow with experience.

 

Oh yeah and he has to stop doing that little grimace/smile thing when his boneheaded moves don't work out, that little thing makes me want to smash the TV."

 

I hears ya.

 

I'm just as frustrated by management's apparent free pass they're giving him, like Garner.

 

It just seems odd that a manager heading into his 6th year on the job, would still need help with in-game decisions. Over 800 games, and he's not ready yet!

 

And I agree that if there was ever a clear-cut, fan-friendly time for Doug and Mark to get out their hammer and club Ned like a whack-a-mole, it would have been at the end of his 2nd late-season meltdown. I'll even agree that Mark's first Vote Of Confidence (the dreaded V.O.C.!) on September 3rd, was appropriate, since we were still close, and an in-season move at that point would have destroyed any chance we may have had (although it didn't help, anyway).

 

I was livid when we were officially eliminated that Saturday by the Padres, and in Sunday morning's papers, within hours after the cinders of our season were still smoldering, Mark gave his 2nd V.O.C., declaring "Ned is fine!!" If he said nothing, he and Doug still could have enjoyed the ambiguity, and used it to their advantage in strategizing.

 

But no, Mark's mind was made up that Ned was going to be rewarded, regardless, so his public statements of affirmation didn't matter, since it was already decided.

 

My question is, what was the rush to retain Ned? Were other teams secretly angling for Ned's services? Was his brilliance making him a possibly attractive managerial choice like a Girardi or Piniella? Hell no.

 

I'm sorry, but hurrying up and extending Ned back when, was not a wise move. Ned had no leverage, Ned was given the best talent he ever had in 5 seasons. The team was either going to improve, regardless of who was managing, or....Ned was going to blow it again, which he, of course, did.

 

Now, Doug's left to say "People are fired in the middle of contracts," . To me, that sounds dumb. One minute, Doug's saying he didn't want Ned operating under the pressure of that last year of his contract. But then, he says that he could easily fire Ned. That's pressure, too, right?

 

Bad.

[Ennder]

This issue is overblown and having our young players play better is the bottom line. Pitch well and our team will be fine seeing we should hit very well. Yost has little to do with any of that.

 

I'm not sure I can agree with that. I think a manager is probably at best 2-3 wins one way or the other. The worst manager in baseball probably causes about 2-3 extra losses and the best gives 2-3 extra wins. Now that number is just pulled out of thin air and their is no way to prove it but I've heard other baseball minds say roughly the same range and it just 'feels right'. We lost the division by 2 games last year and I think we are about equal to the Cubs again this year. The division is most likely going to come down to just 1-4 wins. If Yost is below average and costs us 2 games it could easily be the difference between making the playoffs or not.

[BrewCrewForever]

It's obviously tough to quantify how many wins Yost may have cost the team, but he certainly had a large number of indefensible moves.

• Mench over Jenkins against Dempster.
• Letting Aquino face Pence with the game on the line.
• Losing close games down the stretch without even using your best reliever, including one so awful that it inspired a full-length column at baseball prospectus.
• Leaving Turnbow in one or two walks too long.
• Subbing Braun for defense in games that are still close.
• The Pujols-McClung-La Russa beanball "mine's bigger than yours" disaster.
• Countless other times where his only defense was him playing a hunch or going with "the flow of the game."

That's just way to many inexcusable moves to not lose your job. If 2008 is not his last shot I'll be irate, considering that he shouldn't have even had a shot at his last shot.

For the most part I have been on the fence about how I feel about Yost, but man all of the above points by Steveo make it hard to be on Ned's side.

 

[endaround]

Well considering Yost had to be told to get a pinch hitter ready by his VanderWahl to get a pinch hitter ready his first year on the job, his ing ame management has improved!

[Robideaux]

Belichek wasn't a good coach in Cleveland and now is a god. Phil Jackson has been average with the lakers and now they get Gasol and they are contenders. In baseball Larussa had bad teams and then moved on to St Louis and had some great players who helped him win. I could go on and on.

At the risk of getting a bit off topic, Phil Jackson won 9 championships prior to the Gasol trade--including 3 during his "average" stint with the Lakers. LaRussa made it to 3 straight World Series with the 1988-1990 A's. He won the championship in 1989 (though he probably should have won at least 2 with those teams). Prior to moving to St. Louis, he had been named manager of the year three times and had a video game named after him.

 

Even though your examples (aside from Belichick) aren't the best, your point is well taken...good players make managers look good and bad players make them look bad. I think that a bad manager can win a championship (Ozzie Guillan) and a good manager will lose big games and series with good players (take your pick). I would argue that we should judge Yost not only on the results (W/L, whether a specific move works), we should judge him on the logic (or lack thereof) underpinning his decisions. If he is making the right moves and he is just getting unlucky--well that should even out--but if he is making patently incorrect strategic decisions, then that is less likely to change for the better.

 

 

P.S. I can't wait until Ned Yost Baseball 2008 hits stores! It's a baseball sim where you accrue points for making strategical dubious baseball decisions and polarizing the fanbase with your stubborn insistence that everybody is just second-guessing you.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Belichek wasn't a good coach in Cleveland and now is a god. Phil Jackson has been average with the lakers and now they get Gasol and they are contenders. In baseball Larussa had bad teams and then moved on to St Louis and had some great players who helped him win. I could go on and on. But when people constantly bash Yost, it seems like a waste of time to me."

 

OK, whynot, let's take these points apart:

 

Bill Belichick took the Browns to the conference title game.

 

LaRussa won the pennant 3 times with the A's, and won a World Series once, there. Then, he took over the Cardinals, and won a championship with them, too. Not good?

 

Phil Jackson won not 1, or 2, but 3 World Championships with the Lakers! That's average? :lol

 

 

"But in the big picture, having more talent than the other team is the thing that decides whether or not you go on to the playoffs and win a title. Yost could win the world series this year and then the Yost bashers would simply say it was the talent that covered up his mistakes. It can't be both ways."

 

That's the thing. Last year, he DID have more talent than the Cubs, and a huge 8 1/2 game lead...which was blown...for the 2nd time. That's on him.

 

Tell ya what: If Ned guides this team to a world championship this year, I'll be right there leading the charge for him to be kept. (Holding breath.....turning blue....passing out...zzzzzzzzz).

[whynotthebrewers]

Bill Belichick took the Browns to the conference title game.

 

LaRussa won the pennant 3 times with the A's, and won a World Series once, there. Then, he took over the Cardinals, and won a championship with them, too. Not good?

 

Phil Jackson won not 1, or 2, but 3 World Championships with the Lakers! That's average?

 

The main point you are forgetting to point out with those examples is that each of those coaches had the best players in the game on their teams. Jackson won with the lakers but that was with Kobe and Shaq. So after Shaq left and he didnt have the two best players in the game, he suddenly wasn't winning titles. I doubt he changed the way he coached. Larussa had some decent players in Oakland and also in St Louis. McGwire, Eck, Stewart, Canseco, Pujols, just to name a few. I am sure they had something to do with the winning but it didnt hurt having some of the best players. Being in this market, it is very difficult to get these type of players which makes it much easier to win. Yost has done ok with what we have but we don't exactly have some of the players he has had. We have some guys that may get there and then maybe we can really kill the guy. But over his 5 years, last year was really the only time we might have had a chance to win the division. Saying it was because of him is a matter of opinion and everyone can say that if they would have done it their way, we would have won. Everyone has all the answers and it must be somewhat easy to win from reading may of the posts. I have no idea why Melvin jsut doesnt hire some guy from the internet to coach for minimum wage and put more money into players.

 

All of the examples made are correct but those guys also had a little help from some studs on their team. If we dont get it done this year I will be getting anxious but it may be because our pitching doesnt come through or some of our hitters slump as they did last year. Or maybe our bullpen isnt as strong. But simply saying Yost is to blame may be a bit far. Give Yost the Mets lineup and pitching and I would guess he would do a little better doing the same thing as he is now. That is all I am saying. He does things just like Bobby Cox did and I think Bobby had a little help from some of the best pitching staffs ever. It probably covered up alot of things people would see as wrong during their run but winning covered it up. Now he does alot of things wrong seeing they are not winning as much. Funny how that works. Baseball is a game where the manager plays the least in the result. This argument holds a little more water in football or basketball where there are plays on a constant basis. Baseball managers eat seeds, chew gum and other things, and sit on their but. They send in a buntm hit and run, and make pitching changes. In between, players have to pitch, field, and hit to give the mangers a chance to do anything. There are alot of games where there is a blowout either way and the manager does very little.

 

I want to focus on the players and get better ones. Focusing on this, this often, is really silly. He is going to be here and I can only hope we play well enough to win a bunch of games.. We sure have alot of talent now and the heat is on. But we still have holes that richer teams don't deal with.

 

(pared back long quote --1992)

[adambr2]

I agree with a lot of the mentioned reasons why I'm not a Yost fan. I don't know if I've ever heard him admit to a poor decision or confess a mistake. That makes me feel like he's more apt to keep trying to pound the square peg into the round hole rather than step back and see what's not working and why.

 

I think he absolutely overanalyzes extremely small sample sizes and misleading statistics to a point where he confuses himself. He'll take a 2.00 ERA lefty reliever out of the game for a 6.00 ERA righty reliever and then explain later that the batter at the plate hits .290 against lefties and .265 against righties. He'll seemingly forget how the first pitcher came to get a 2.00 ERA and the second came to get a 6.00 ERA.

 

I think what annoys me just as much as anything about him is his subtley conceited attitude. More than once, when he's been criticized by fans, he has essentially reacted with, "Silly fans. If only they understood the game as well as I." Or in a post game press conference after a loss with some very questionable moves, he'll react to being second-guessed with smirks that say, "I don't care what you think about it, I would have done it the same way 50 times."

 

He doesn't seem to be able to take constructive criticism without interpreting it as a personal attack.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

Found one more, Stevo!

 

I just KNEW there was at least one more time when Ned cost us a game last year with a key bad decision, and I found it.

 

The Brewers blew yet another 5-0 lead, at the end of a painful 1-5 homestand, against Cincinnati on August 19th.

 

Top of the 8th. JJ Hardy just gave us back the lead, 6-5, with a solo shot, and an obviously struggling Scott Linebrink loaded bases. I'll just turn copy and paste from Rick Braun's game article, from here:

 

"The game then turned on one big decision.

Switch-hitting catcher Javier Valentin ran in from the bullpen to pinch-hit for Ryan Jorgensen, who had struck out three times. Valentin seemed to take his time getting ready for his at-bat but later revealed that he was fully expecting Yost to pull right-hander Scott Linebrink and bring in lefty Brian Shouse to face him.

Valentin was batting .231 from the right side in 13 at-bats and .292 from the left side in 144 at-bats.

When asked why he didn't turn Valentin around to his weaker side, Yost said he wanted Linebrink to face Valentin.

That backfired when Linebrink fell behind, 3-2, and Valentin drove a fastball into the gap in left-center for two runs. Reds manager Pete Mackanin said he expected Yost to hail Shouse from the bullpen to face Valentin. "Yes, I was very surprised," Mackanin said. "I know it's a tough decision, but Javy struggles a little bit more from the right side than he does from the left."

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=649106

 

Migod, an opposing player expected and actually waited for, a better managerial decision that didn't materialize. The Reds interim manager was able to sniff out the situation, and also would have made a better choice. This tells me that Pete Mackanin is better-suited to make in-game decisions than a guy with 5 years on the job. If Ted Simmons won't take the job, let's hang onto Pete's cell phone number.

 

It sounds like the blame game to Ned supporters, but we're quoting situations where other teams' players, managers, our beat writers...are all wondering what goes into Yost's decision-making process. We lost the division by 2 lousy games. August 19th vs. Cincinnati...August 30th at Chicago...September 3 vs. Houston ("the choice of Aquino to face Pence" game).

 

There were quite a few others, such as when Counsell was brought in for Braun and wound ending the inning ahead of Prince a few times, or the instances when Cordero was left to gather cobwebs in the pen, because it wasn't the bottom of the 9th on the road.

 

But anyone paying attention closely could easily argue that these 3 specific examples alone, were the difference in costing us our first playoff berth in 25 years.

 

Yet, all I heard today on Talkin' Brewers was how Ned deserved this extra year extension on his contract, how he comes to the park for night games, at noon, how well he handles a clubhouse....blahblahblah.

 

 

 

 

[Mr QL]

My Yost hate kinda faded during the offseason with football and basketball to take my mind off it. I'm sure I'll find it after a couple games though.

 

But yea, if we don't make the playoffs this year, he should be fired. I'd like him gone during the season too if we're struggling bad enough.

[twobrewers]

Jim Zorn (New head coach of the Washington Redskins) looks a lot like Ned Yost.

[BrewCrewForever]

Jim Zorn (New head coach of the Washington Redskins) looks a lot like Ned Yost.

Dude I was kind of thinking the same thing when I saw his picture when I read the story.

[areacodes]

• Subbing Braun for defense in games that are still close.
• The Pujols-McClung-La Russa beanball "mine's bigger than yours" disaster.

I can get on board with your other points about Yost and his shortcomings but these two don't really do it for me. It has been said by more than one poster that they are pissed at Yost for replacing Braun with Counsell for defense only to have him come up in an important situation later where we would have needed his bat. I just don't get why the hate on this one. We had one of the worst defensive players for their position in MLB history and our fans are ripping on Yost for replacing him so he doesn't cost us a game because of it? It just doesn't make sense to me... I know that Counsell ended up coming up to bat in some critical situations but Yost really had his hands tied in those late game situations with Braun's defense.

I also don't understand why Ned is looked at in a negative light for the beanball situation while it was completely ok for LaRussa to act like he did... Is it because we ended up losing a game because of it? I would honestly like to know on this one because I guess I don't see the difference in what LaRussa did to Hart and Fielder earlier in that series and what Yost did to Pujol other than the fact that Turnbow couldn't get out of the inning and the St. Louis pitchers could. Maybe I am missing something about the situation that makes it "inexcusable" and a reason for Nedly to lose his job.

Now, with that all said... Unless there are some mega unfortunate incidents that happen to the Brewers this year (Prince and Braun decide they want to open up a ballet studio instead of playing baseball, the arms of the entire pitching staff fall off from infection), this is Yost's last season if we don't make the playoffs and if for some reason we are struggling, be it Yost's fault or just the players not performing, I could see him canned mid-season.

 

[1992casey]

I also don't understand why Ned is looked at in a negative light for the beanball situation while it was completely ok for LaRussa to act like he did...

Why make your guy pitch with a runner on base when he can just as easily pitch without one?

[adambr2]

I also don't understand why Ned is looked at in a negative light for the beanball situation while it was completely ok for LaRussa to act like he did... Is it because we ended up losing a game because of it? I would honestly like to know on this one because I guess I don't see the difference in what LaRussa did to Hart and Fielder earlier in that series and what Yost did to Pujol other than the fact that Turnbow couldn't get out of the inning and the St. Louis pitchers could. Maybe I am missing something about the situation that makes it "inexcusable" and a reason for Nedly to lose his job.

 

 

Where do I start? Okay, first of all, what LaRussa does is a moot point. No one ever said it was okay for LaRussa to act like he did, but since he is not the manager of the Milwaukee Brewers, what he does is not our concern. Really, all LaRussa did was lay the bait, and Yost gobbled it right down.

 

Secondly, there's an enormous difference to the situations because Yost was in a pennant race, LaRussa was not. If we would have been 10 games under .500 and eliminated from the playoffs when it was done, it wouldn't have been a big deal at all, and no one would care.

 

The fact that he let his personal vendetta distract him from his team's playoff race is the inexcusable part.