Piniella names 5 Cub starters

[TooLiveBrew]

I just don't know. Put yourself in the Orioles' shoes - would you want to deal a fan favorite and established star for a bunch of 'maybe' prospects? Trading one top player for a bunch of potential filler is a bad strategy imo. The O's could certainly just hang onto Roberts and get a much better offer once the season gets going.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Put yourself in Orioles shoes"

 

We were there in 2002. They'll lose 110 with Roberts and 112 without him. Franchise has to stockpile guys young enough to be around when they have a chance to turn things around. Roberts doesn't fall in that category.

[BADGERJOBOB]

I try not to be too much of a homer, but it seems like every year there are a couple of writers who are all over the Cubs and they throw out their obligatory "this is the year" stuff and I just don't see how we're supposed to buy it year after year. As has been discussed above, they haven't made any moves to prove that this year's team is just going to out-win last year's team. I just fail to see why everyone is on their bandwagon to start each season.

 

You guys keep saying the Cubs didn't make any moves but your forgetting, NEITHER DID WE. And they finished ahead of us last year. i guess I just don't get how everyone here can be so confident that we are better than the Cubs when I would take just about all of their pitchers over ours if we are looking at a 162 game season.

[TooLiveBrew]

BJB, re-visit the offseason's transactions.

 

We were there in 2002. They'll lose 110 with Roberts and 112 without him.

While I agree with this, they still need to draw as many fans as possible. Also, what you're advocating here is accepting a crappy offer for a top-tier player (for his position), when you're all but guaranteed to get two or three better offers by the trading deadline this year. I wouldn't want to take a bunch of crappy players for a good one, that's just bad management imo. Roberts has real value and you must insist on getting real value in return. Now if the Cubs would've included Pie in the deal, I think Roberts'd be a North-sider by now.

[BADGERJOBOB]

BJB, re-visit the offseason's transactions.

 

We were there in 2002. They'll lose 110 with Roberts and 112 without him.

While I agree with this, they still need to draw as many fans as possible. Also, what you're advocating here is accepting a crappy offer for a top-tier player (for his position), when you're all but guaranteed to get two or three better offers by the trading deadline this year. I wouldn't want to take a bunch of crappy players for a good one, that's just bad management imo. Roberts has real value and you must insist on getting real value in return. Now if the Cubs would've included Pie in the deal, I think Roberts'd be a North-sider by now.

Ummmm whats there to re-visit? Kendall, Gagne, Cameron, Riske? So at catcher its a wash. I know must of you think it is an upgrade but its really a wash. Cameron? He misses a decent chunk of games and I doubt he puts up better numbers than Jenkins/Mench duo did last year so again a wash. Plus we move our outfielder to the infield and our infielder to the outfield. There will be an adjustment period and it will cost us some games. Than what? Gagne and Riske for Cordero and Wise. Cordero > Gagne, Riske > Wise. Again a wash. So now where is this huge upgrade that will propel us past a team that finished ahead of us? And don't our young talent will improve because the Cubs have young talent as well that is also improving. Don't get me wrong, i am a die hard Brewers fan but I just don't see the huge upgrade and nor do I see that the Cubs have taken a step back. Pretty much status quo to me.

[TooLiveBrew]

You're right on the Cubs - 'status quo' is pretty much what they have from last year.

 

 

Ummmm whats there to re-visit? Kendall, Gagne, Cameron, Riske?

 

There's so much more to it. The bullpen is much better on the whole, Kendall's OBP upgrade over Estrada makes his lack of power completely excusable (well, almost http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ), and the Cameron domino-effect is huge in terms of D, let alone the fact that Mike himself will post a line around .265/.350/.450 this year.

[Weirdos19]

How can you say we didn't make any moves???

 

Gagne = Cordero (very average second half)

Riske > 2007 Turnbow- without a doubt

Torres > Wise

Shouse = Shouse

2008 Turnbow > 2007 McClung

2008 McClung = Spurling

2008 Parra = 2007 Villy

 

There is no way our bullpen isn't better this season than last.

 

Kendall and Cameron are better than Estrada and Jenkins too. Maybe not a ton better, but the defense overall will be much better.

[Weirdos19]

The Cubs RF OPS last year was right around .800. That should be about what they get out of Fukudome. A .280/..350/ .450 seems to be a good guess for him.

 

A 3-4-5 of Dempster, Hill, and Marquis doesn't do much for me either. Especially if Hill can't find the plate.

 

The Cub fans brag about their pen, then they put their faith in Kerry Wood, while moving their closer to the rotation.

[Gopher74]

You guys keep saying the Cubs didn't make any moves but your forgetting, NEITHER DID WE. And they finished ahead of us last year. i guess I just don't get how everyone here can be so confident that we are better than the Cubs when I would take just about all of their pitchers over ours if we are looking at a 162 game season.

YES WE DID!!!

 

Not sure why, I just felt the need to keep pace with you by yelling for no apparent reason.

 

However, to correct that absolutely ridiculous statement that we didn't make any moves.

 

1-Cameron

Saying that he won't put up better numbers than Mench or Jenkins did last year is to not pay any attention whatsoever. Their collective OBP in a platoon was what? Maybe .310(.319/.305).....315? Cameron playing in pitchers parks all of his career had put up .345 or so OB's. That's an upgrade. He'll likely hit for at least as much power, and is a GG'er.

Now, as for your "we move an OF'er to the IF and an IF to OF, I'm sorry, and I'm trying not to step over the line here, but are you kidding me? Yes, and we "brought up a minor leaguer last year to play 3rd base". If only we could make every situation so simple. We moved an OF'er(Hall) who has been an IF'er every-single-year of his career back to 3rd base in what will be a monumental upgrade defensively if he's only slightly below average. That's not a push in any reasonable reality imaginable.

Then we take the worst defensive player in baseball and move him to the least important position in all of baseball. This mind you is a player that some feel is more suited to play CF because of his athletic ability. Great speed, great arm, we'll see how he does, but he can't cost us 1/10th as much as he did at 3rd.

Finally, you get a 3 time GG'er, and 3 time GG runner up in CF.

 

What was our biggest problem last year? Defense. We made giant upgrades there, and that's a "push"? The Brewers pitching was better than the Cubs pitching when you take out defensive factors, so to call that no improvement is just flat out silly.

 

2nd-Gange

Question mark, sure. Likely won't be quite as good as Cordero, but he's also been very good every single time he's been a closer in his career, and he's two years removed from surgery. We'll see.

3rd-David Riske

Just look at his numbers before you say he wasn't a move.

4th-Salomon Torres

The guy was fantastic from 04-06. He was a little bit banged up last year with his shoulder, appears to be healed. Could be a huge upgrade.

5th-Mota

Really looks good in Spring. Again, could be. Hell, you can argue that he won't be, but with relievers when the goal is to essentially hope that they bounce back, we've got a lot of good arms to do so with.

6th-Kendall

.270/.370 with ChC last year(approx). He can move. He's a better defender. That means he's better than Johnny Estrada. Argue how much better all you want, but don't say with a straight face that he's not better. Projects to have a OBP around .345. Explain how that's not superior to the .295 that Estrada had last year?

7-Braun for a full year.

8-Gallardo from Mid-April on

9-Villanueva

10-Parra

 

These are all moves that we made that should suggest we're going to be better than last year. Some in major ways such as number 1, and others possibly in less impactful ways.

 

But what I find to be the most ridiculous is this suggestion that we were only going to improve if we went out and spent 150 million dollars on 2 players. We're an incredibly young team. I could also throw in a healthy Rickie Weeks to that list.

 

 

As for the pitchers comment, I'd rather not even get into that one. I'm not sure what is so appealing about the Jon Lieber's, Rich Hill's, Ted Lilly's of the worlds over the Villy's, Parra's, and Gallardo's, but whatever. To each their own I guess. I'm just not counting on several pitchers to exceed expectations again this year.

[adambr2]

For the life of me I can't figure out what the Cubs are thinking making Dempster a starter. He was an average reliever, and he has a 4.99 career ERA as a starter. He hasn't been a good starter since 2000. Now they lose depth in the pen and get a worse starter. This is a good move because he's "experienced"? You can't convince me that Marshall or even Lieber wouldn't be a better choice.