Good Guys and Bad Guys

[bigredrobbo]

As I see it, most of Brewerfan.net seems to have fairly rigid demarcation lines as to the good guys and bad guys on the team. Most of the opinions expressed seem to be flavored by which side of the line these guys are on.

 

Good Guys

 

Prince

Braun

Hart

Hall

Yo

Carlos V

Weeks

JJ

Simba

Ed Sedar

Gross

Crazy Joe D

Rottino

Rivera

Riske

Dillard

Parra

Stetter

 

 

Bad Guys

 

Counsell

Gagne

McClung

Vargas

Yost

Sveum

Nix

Kapler

Cameron

Kendall

Munson

Choate

Turnbow

Mota

Zach Jack

Soup

Capuano (although he's now getting pity points)

 

 

Bubble Boys

 

Bush

TGJ

Torres

Sheets

Shouse

....and of course the ultimate polarizing player, Russell the Muscle.

 

Am I wrong?

[TooLiveBrew]

I just want to suggest one amendment...

 

Bubble Boys

 

Bush

TGJ

Torres

Sheets

Shouse

....and of course the ultimate polarizing player, Russell the Muscle.

 

Russell the Muscle Boys

 

Branyan

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[brewcrew00]

For whatever reason TGJ I don't think is a bubble boy on this site. It come across like nobody here wants that guy to succeed.

 

Now if you update that list on a game day where the Brewers lose, there won't be a single "good guy" on the page.

[bigredrobbo]

For whatever reason TGJ I don't think is a bubble boy on this site. It come across like nobody here wants that guy to succeed.

 

Now if you update that list on a game day where the Brewers lose, there won't be a single "good guy" on the page.

 

Although, interestingly, the Bad Guys list tends to stay the same, even when we win!

[brewjihad]

It come across like nobody here wants that guy to succeed.

 

I don't think that's the case, it's more that people here realize his limitations. He doesn't hit for power, and hasn't proven that he can get on base consistently enough to warrant a starting position.

 

To nitpick, I don't know about Stetter and Dillard. But overall, that's an interesting list.

[brewcrew00]

It come across like nobody here wants that guy to succeed.

 

I don't think that's the case, it's more that people here realize his limitations. He doesn't hit for power, and hasn't proven that he can get on base consistently enough to warrant a starting position.

 

To nitpick, I don't know about Stetter and Dillard. But overall, that's an interesting list.

No he doesn't hit for power, but that isn't what this team needs. They already have enough power. I don't recall him getting a good chance in the league to show he can get on base consistently either. Spring training doesn't count for anything because it's just that, training. Yes there are limitations, I'm not saying there aren't, but to say the guy has had a fair chance at starting and hasn't done anything to warrant a position is outrageous.

[TooLiveBrew]

No he doesn't hit for power, but that isn't what this team needs.

He's had thousands of ABs in the minors, and has not shown much at all in terms of OBP skills.

[jazzytrav]

So, is your claim that people on this site like the good players and don't like the bad players? Am I missing something here?

[Fatter than Joey]

A couple of quibbles.

 

I think the site overwhelmingly likes Shouse for what he is -- I think the negativity comes with how Ned uses him.

 

I'd add Melvin/Front Office to the good guys.

 

I'd add Maddux to a list. I am not sure which

 

I think the site is overall positive about Gagne and Cameron as well.

[rluzinski]

It come across like nobody here wants that guy to succeed.

 

Any true Brewer fan wants every player to succeed. The fact that some fans feel that certain players have a smaller chance of actually doing it doesn't change that fact. I don't want to give any player 100s of AB to prove he can succeed when my best guess is that he won't. It's silly to suggest that it's personal.

[bullox]

I think Cameron is out of place. He's a good guy.

[jazzytrav]

I just think this list carries a lot of misperception.

No one thinks of Counsell as one of the bad guys. We just don't want him to start. I think most fans here like the fact that he can work the count and draw walks while playing above average defense all over the infield. That's a quality bench player.

Part of the problem with Vargas and Capuano (before the injury) is the fact that many feel Villy is a better pitcher than them but he'll have to go down so that one of them can be in the rotation. And to be real about it, Vargas just isn't that good compared to other pitchers we have.

I think Kendall and Cameron basically receive good marks around here. Cameron was highly thought of by many when he was signed...some were just concerned about his suspension. Kendall is...well, let's talk more about what Kendall isn't. He's not Johnny "First Pitch" Estrada, and he can actually run. He's not a constant double play waiting to happen.

Gagne showed up on the Mitchell Report...after he was signed for $10 million by a team that can't afford to throw out $10 million contracts to guys that may have only been good while taking HGH. I sincerely hope that he returns to his dominant form, but you have to admit that it's not unreasonable to question the situation.

I think a lot of people like Zach Jack, but don't see him as a major league pitcher yet. And his windup is just hard to watch. I keep thinking he's going to punch himself in the face or something.

The only thing I have to disagree with from the so-called "good guys" is Rivera. I don't think many here really view him as a major league catcher. Apparently the team doesn't either since Rottino is "the best catching prospect" we have, according to Melvin.

Overall, as I noted before, you've basically taken the good players and said that we see them as "good guys", and taken the players that aren't so good and labeled them as "bad guys". Was there a point to this?

[joshjs]

TGJ is a polarizing guy, just like Branyan (though to a lesser extent, of course). So I think his place on the "bubble" list is appropriate to what you're doing.

 

However, I think a different approach to describing the data may be in order. While there are clearly some players that are widely admired and clearly a few that are widely reviled, most of them have supporters and detractors. Assigning a net value for popularity (say -10 to 10) and a variance would better describe how the fans feel about a particular player.

 

I'd take a shot at doing so, but I don't have enough time left in my lunch break. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

Aside from perception, how is TGJ in any way a bubble guy?

[endaround]

You need to pay closer attention. Hall gets ripped constantly. We had two threads in the past 5 days calling for trading Weeks. Gross is attacked all the time. Certain people were overjoyed when Rotino was optioned. I think Turnbow gets defended a bunch. I don't think people care about Choate in any way.

[OOOverbay]

I agree with Jazzy... especially Counsell. I love his gritty work ethic, but that doesn't mean I want to see him make any more than 5 spot starts all year (I'd prefer none). I love him as a bench player, but Yost seemed to want me to hate him last year by giving him all those starts. And more than anything, I hate when they say he has "postseason experience" and two rings. Whoopidy do... so he lucked his way onto two teams as they peaked at the right times; he's not a freakin starter. One of the reasons he chose to come back to the Brewers was because he saw this was a fun, young, talented team on the rise. Kudos to him. However, no one on that bad guy list can come nearly as close as my most hated Brewer ever... Johnny "Lazy Ass Jerk" Estrada. (I'm to young to feel anger towards Sheffield, but I've heard the stories about him.)

[endaround]

It wasn't the starts that bothered me, it was the double switches meaning that Counsell was given ABs instead of just coming in as a defensive replacement

[DrWood]

Oooverbay, is that a shaved beaver I see?

 

 

I think this thread has no redeeming value. jmo.

[BrewCrewForever]

I love Gagne, Sheets and Cameron.

[joshjs]

Aside from perception, how is TGJ in any way a bubble guy?

 

I'm sorry, I thought this thread was about perception.

 

I am not a fan of the guy. But there are Brewer fans who are. My point is that, because of those fans, it's not appropriate to say he is a "bad guy" to most Brewer fans.

[Brian the Automator]

I guess I don't view the players that way. There are certainly players that I pull for more than others, but I don't think there's anyone I would call a "bad guy". As the season goes on, someone might emerge ala Alex Sanchez, but I think this crop of Brewers players is quite likable.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't think the OP meant character, instead the general popularity or lack thereof for a given player.

[bigredrobbo]

I don't think the OP meant character, instead the general popularity or lack thereof for a given player.

 

Correct, TLB. Based on the general concensus of posts, the players tend to get more of a free ride if they are one of the good guys, and ridden harder if they are among the bad guys. Sure, there will be deviations from the norm, but I think I mostly got it right. I'll include DM/FO in the good guys and put Maddux on the bubble if it helps.

 

My point (or at least the impetus for the post), was to see if any of the designated whipping boys on the bad guys list can ever expect to be judged fairly, or if they are forever doomed to be locked outside the Brewerfan lovefests that the likes of Yo and Billy Hall get.

 

Let's run the list again in October (November?) and see who moves!

[RightFieldCoder]

Any true Brewer fan wants every player to succeed. The fact that some fans feel that certain players have a smaller chance of actually doing it doesn't change that fact. I don't want to give any player 100s of AB to prove he can succeed when my best guess is that he won't. It's silly to suggest that it's personal.

I agree with Russ. I don't want to give TGJ the chance to succeed because his minor league batting projections say he won't succeed. Heck, I haven't been given the chance to succeed in the Majors but everyone will agree it would be pointless to give me that chance. TGJ has a much better chance than me, but imo less of a chance than others.

[TooLiveBrew]

Based on the general concensus of posts, the players tend to get more of a free ride if they are one of the good guys, and ridden harder if they are among the bad guys.

 

But I believe it's the other way around. The guys that are better players (or where you can find something aside from lack of talent/ability... bad luck, wacky out-of-norm numbers, etc.) are ridden less because they present the least about which to complain.

 

EDIT: The Capuano discussions come to mind, and that can be contrasted oftentimes with Vargas. The reason so many defended Chris was that there was significant evidence pointing to something aside from his ability (ended up being a major injury, among many other things...) which led to Chris's ineffectiveness. Conversely, with Claudio, what played the biggest role in his success - imo - last year was good luck.

 

It's not that I pick on Vargas bc I don't like him or that I give Cappy a free pass bc I love him.