Why is roster being held hostage by Seth McClung and his 6.16 ERA?

[TooLiveBrew]

or do you lose McClung on waivers for a pittance of what he could bring?

 

McClung wouldn't bring much of/if anything.

[endaround]

They are connected because there are only two pitchers who can really be sent down, Parra and Villanueva. If McClung is kept, assuming a 12 man staff, the only opening is long relief with Shouse, Turnbow, Riske, Gange, Tores, and Mota cemented in barring injury. That means that Vargas has to go to the rotation instead of being long relief. That pushes either Parra or Villanueva out to Nashville with the other going down when Yo returns.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

The Brewers have never tried to put Vargas in the pen. We as fans think he's a candidate for long reliever.

Actually they have. Vargas had one save last year. Right?

[brewjihad]

The Brewers have never tried to put Vargas in the pen. We as fans think he's a candidate for long reliever.

 

Vargas 2008

Games: 29

Starts: 23

 

McClung wouldn't bring much of/if anything.

 

How about we trade him for that one guy who tore up AAA last year... what was his name... Grant Balfour?

[JJHardy7]

They are connected because there are only two pitchers who can really be sent down, Parra and Villanueva.

 

I still don't think McClung has any direct connection to CV. If CV is going to be on the Brewers, he's going to be a starter. The real connection is between Vargas, Bush, etc. and CV. McClung's situation has nothing to do with CV in my eyes. If you want to get upset at the Brewers for possibly sending CV down, I don't think McClung is the player that is causing this.

[trwi7]

I still don't think McClung has any direct connection to CV. If CV is going to be on the Brewers, he's going to be a starter. The real connection is between Vargas, Bush, etc. and CV. McClung's situation has nothing to do with CV in my eyes. If you want to get upset at the Brewers for possibly sending CV down, I don't think McClung is the player that is causing this.

 

Yes he does. If CV is with the big club he's going to be starting which means you put Vargas in the long relief role. Since McClung is the long reliever that takes a roster spot away from CV.

[lukevan]

I guess I should've said what I meant. I know he has pitched as a reliever, but the Brewers haven't talked about Vargas in the bullpen for this season unless I've missed something along the way.

[JJHardy7]

Yes he does. If CV is with the big club he's going to be starting which means you put Vargas in the long relief role. Since McClung is the long reliever that takes a roster spot away from CV.

 

I don't think he does. I don't recall the Brewers mentioning using Vargas in a relief role. Maybe McClung is indirectly related to CV, but I honestly don't think the Brewers are looking at it as McClung vs. CV.

 

Could it possibly be that they want him to get the ball every 5 days? I still think this is the main point that some are missing. When CV got the ball on a somewhat regular basis during the stretch last year he was a very, very good starting pitcher.

 

The point is that CV isn't going to stay in Nashville all year. If a world series can be won in April, than the Brewers would have won one last year. The Brewers have four off days in April and the Sounds only have 2. They'll get CV regular work in April and will be able to move around other starters in the minors to keep CV on a regular schedule. At the end of April, the Brewers will call up CV and the world will be back in order.

[trwi7]

If a world series can be won in April, than the Brewers would have won one last year.

Tell me how a win in April is any different than one in August or September. They all count as one win and when you're putting a worse starting pitcher and reliever out there that ends up hurting the team. Yeah it may only be for one month but I'll take Villanueva over Vargas in the starting rotation and I'll take Vargas over McClung in the bullpen.

 

There has to be some point where you say this guy is already 27 and if he hasn't figured it out yet he's not likely to figure it out.

[endaround]

Whoever didn't get in the rotation was always a candidate for long relief. Vargas has done it in the past. Whoever gets the #5 spot will get 28-32 starts depending on the schedule/injuries. Why give those to Vargas over Villaneuva?

 

Villanueva ERA projections range from 3.84 to 4.62

 

Vargas ERA projections range from 4.71 to 5.10

 

EDIT:It is possible that McClung finally does figure it out, he won't be the first relief pitcher not to do much until 27. The problem is that it isn't 2005 and you really don't have room for another Turnbow experiment when you are trying to win 85+ games.

[TooLiveBrew]

Tell me how a win in April is any different than one in August or September.

 

It's less clutchier. Also, Joe Morgan thinks it's only worth about half of a win in Aug. or Sept. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

The question is how many wins in April and May do we want to sacrifice for "Organizational Depth"?

[JJHardy7]

Tell me how a win in April is any different than one in August or September. They all count as one win and when you're putting a worse starting pitcher and reliever out there that ends up hurting the team. Yeah it may only be for one month but I'll take Villanueva over Vargas in the starting rotation and I'll take Vargas over McClung in the bullpen.

 

The point is that putting CV in Nashville with regular work may actually help out CV and the Brewers over the course of the season. I understand that a win in April is a win in August, but in August and September pitchers have pitched a heck of a lot more and are more likely to wear down. If putting CV in Nashville helps that not happen to him I'm all for it. This is the entire reason or logic behind my point. Yo, CV, and/or Parra aren't going to help the Brewers down the stretch if they're not pitching.

 

Villanueva ERA projections range from 3.84 to 4.62

 

Vargas ERA projections range from 4.71 to 5.10

 

I'm not saying that CV is better than Vargas. Those projections are good and all, but they're useless if CV wears down. It's just an attempt to keep him getting regular work and I'm pretty sure if/when he gets optioned the Brewers will tell him then when exactly he'll be called up. I'm saying that the sky isn't falling. I think it's way too early to get worked up about things like this. Does anyone really think that Vargas is going to start every 5th game all season (barring injury)? I mean come on. It all depends on how the Brewers rotate their pitchers. CV may only miss a few starts in April and I just can't get worked up about CV missing 3 or 4 starts in April -- what if the Brewers win 2 or 3 of those -- is the sky still falling?

 

I'm also not banking on McClung "figuring it out". If he doesn't pan out, the Brewers can make a move then.

[trwi7]

The point is that putting CV in Nashville with regular work may actually help out CV and the Brewers over the course of the season. I

Why not put him in the rotation in Milwaukee which would give him regular work? It's very likely he will be better than Vargas as a starter and it's very likely Vargas will be a better long reliever than McClung.

[JJHardy7]

Why not put him in the rotation in Milwaukee which would give him regular work? It's very likely he will be better than Vargas as a starter and it's very likely Vargas will be a better long reliever than McClung.

 

Nashville has two fewer off days in April and they can skip others spots in the rotation and not mess with the starters (i.e. minor leagues vs. major leagues). I'm not trying to say I believe this is 100% the right decision, but I do think there is some logic to it and it's not the Brewers not being able to win or don't understand contending like some have posted on this site.

 

CV was very good after going down to Nashville and getting the regular work I'm talking about. Based on how the Brewers plan on using their rotation and off days this might keep CV on a more regular pace.

 

The Brewers perhaps want to showcase Vargas and it's easier to do that when he is starting. If CV goes to Nashville in April and Vargas starts, this will allow CV to get regular pitching in and can cap his innings if needed (i.e. not worry about taking him out after 5 innings). On the negative side it may cost the Brewers about 1 run per start that Vargas makes over CV (comparing their career ERAs) -- over the course of what could be 2 - 4 games in Milwaukee I'm not going to get too excited about that.

[endaround]

The Brewers can't showcase Vargas because they have no depth any longer to trade. And showcasing is much less important than winning. And the point is this not 2-4 games. Its the entire season.

[JJHardy7]

The Brewers can't showcase Vargas because they have no depth any longer to trade. And showcasing is much less important than winning. And the point is this not 2-4 games. Its the entire season.

 

How do they not have depth when Yo comes back? Parra, CV, Yo, Suppan, Sheets, Bush, and Vargas. Do you really expect all seven be on the Brewers the entire 2008 year? I don't. I'm confused by your remark that its the entire season. Are you referring to CV being in Nashville the entire season? That's not going to happen. Last year when CV got sent down the Brewers already had a date to call him back up and I'm willing to be it will be a similar situation if he's sent down again.

[TooLiveBrew]

Parra, CV, Yo, Suppan, Sheets, Bush, and Vargas. Do you really expect all seven be on the Brewers the entire 2008 year?

Nope. I think it's pretty much a given that Sheets will miss some time, and Parra remains a huge durability question mark. I think, given our current mix of MLB-caliber SP, 7 is a great number to have in terms of depth.

 

Until YoGa is back, go Sheets/Soup/Bush/Parra/Vargas, with CV at Nashville. Once Yovani is back, use Sheets/YoGa/Soup/Bush/Villy with Vargas in the bullpen.

[endaround]

I'm referring to the fact that when Yo comes back Parra would then head to Nashville. Vargas is set at #5 for the season. Yes they have 7 pitchers, but Parra has strict innings limits and that means you need someone else for injury protection.

 

EDIT: Vargas can't go to the pen since McClung will still have the slot unless they hope McClung can go through waivers easier on April 15th.

[TooLiveBrew]

But why is it important to keep McClung?

[endaround]

I have no clue, but that is what the Brewers are doing. Otherwise Villaneuva would be the #4 or #5 from the get go. Vargas would get the long relief slot.

[JJHardy7]

I have no clue, but that is what the Brewers are doing. Otherwise Villaneuva would be the #4 or #5 from the get go. Vargas would get the long relief slot.

 

It is not a McClung thing. The Brewers believe that CV is his best when he can pitch on a regular basis. He'd be on a more regular basis in April if he's in Nashville. That's really the most important thing and Kremblas has been stressed this by the Brewers front guys and he stresses this with his staff with CV when he was in Nashville. The Brewers have concerns about shifting CV around since they have abused him out of the pen and they don't want to set up anything that can lead to an ineffective CV.

 

I'm referring to the fact that when Yo comes back Parra would then head to Nashville. Vargas is set at #5 for the season. Yes they have 7 pitchers, but Parra has strict innings limits and that means you need someone else for injury protection.

 

And this in a way plays into the Nashville point. CV will get regular work in Nashville and not get overused in terms of innings so he'll be fresh and when it's the right time Parra comes to Nashville and pitches his pitch count limit or 5 innings every time out. This is the Brewers plan and it has next to nothing to do with McClung. I don't get how some thing they are so enamored with him they would risk missing the playoffs by not using a roster spot appropriate. That doesn't make any sense at all. It's not the end of the world or the season that CV may not be in Milwaukee in April. The Brewers are high on McClung since they noticed some mechanics flaws in his time in Tampa Bay, but by no means would they "risk" the season by putting CV in Nashville. He might miss 2 - 4 starts in Milwaukee and that's not really a big deal at all. The more important thing is that the Brewers establish a rotation/bullpen that is clicking in August and September -- and that's exactly what putting CV in Nashville is trying to accomplish.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Yes, but how many games is it going to cost us having Vargas start in April and May instead of Villy?

[danplesac]

If everyone was healthy, I still would have Cappy and Bush sitting out of the rotation. I know Parra had a rough game today but that guy has nothing but potential. I can see him being the team's #3 starter by 2010 easily.

 

I think with injuries and all the starting rotation should be:

 

Ben Sheets

Jeff Suppan

Yovanni Gallardo/Manny Parra (Parra filling in for Gallardo while Yo is out with the injury)

Carlos Villaneuva

Claudio Vargas

 

 

Bush has done nothing for me but prove that at the big league level, that he is too much of a risk. He does have games where he is indeed solid, although too many outings that he proves otherwise. Cappy has shown that he can be an ace for us, but then shows us also that he can be too inconsistant as last year he pretty much screwed us after winning those 5 games.

 

All I know is that I am excited for the season to begin and can't wait to see what this Brewer team is going to do!!!

[JJHardy7]

Yes, but how many games is it going to cost us having Vargas start in April and May instead of Villy?

 

Let's say it's May and let's say based on the Brewers schedule some how CV would've gotten 5 starts (highly unlikely). I don't think Vargas is 5 games out of 5 games better than CV. I think he might be worth a game or two at the most, but how many games does a healthy, consistent CV win in August and September? I'll take the quality August and September starts over a handful of games in April and this hasn't even taken into account the weather elements. The Brewers will most likely have a game or two cancelled in April because of weather which will also take CV off of consistent starts. That is not likely to happen in the PCL. Having CV in Nashville in April isn't a crazy idea. It makes sense to a certain degree.