Yankees-Rays fight in spring training

[TooLiveBrew]

If you don't want to get run over, DON'T BLOCK THE PLATE. It's baseball 101, and you're asking a guy who may not ever get another chance to make a club to give himself up there?

 

It's ST. Players look out for each other - how many other teams have bowled the C mulitple times this ST? As for the Villy reference, it was an example of a comparable (as in, non-top-flight) 'prospect', just since I don't think Salome is quite comparable yet... should've used Angel, but it's so much semantics I didn't think it mattered.

 

The irony in all this is that Girardi had talked with one of his players (honestly, iirc I think it was Duncan) earlier in ST about this. The player had specifically asked Girardi how to handle a situation where you'd bowl the C in the regular season, and Girardi told him point-blank that you just flat-out don't do that in ST... oh but I guess Girardi 'would totally bowl the C every time', huh? (yes, Goph, I know you didn't make that claim)

 

you don't necessarily have time -- when you're running full blast and 10 feet from the plate -- to say, "Well, it's only spring training, so maybe I should let up."

Except that it's pretty common baseball protocol to not plow guys in ST.

 

 

Any and i repeat any player in that kids position would do the same thing. This may your only chance to make an impression on the major league manager. Hustle and determination like that will get you noticed.

 

Well it certainly will on the TB Rays, aka the toughest sumguns in all of the old west! The most hard-nosed ST team you'll ever see. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/eyes.gif This notion that the guy did this 'to make the ballclub' doesn't hold any water to me. If your manager evaluates talent poorly enough where he needs to see you plow a kid in the 8th inning of a ST game to notice you, I'm glad he's not my manager. Either that or you're just not a very talented baseball player.

[jason21nl]

its ST, you shouldn't go plowing into a catcher just like you shouldn't go spikes up(you should never go spikes up anyway). ST is for guys to get fielding practice see live pitching, get ready for the season and get out of there without injury. Billy Crystal is going to bat lead off for the Yankees today, I guess if he is crowding the plate, they should knock him off?

[TooLiveBrew]

its ST, you shouldn't go plowing into a catcher just like you shouldn't go spikes up(you should never go spikes up anyway). ST is for guys to get fielding practice see live pitching, get ready for the season and get out of there without injury.

 

I couldn't agree more with this. I'm not defending the Yankees' retaliation as ethical, but the notion that one play was just a part of the game (RS - yes, ST - no way) & the other was just a no-class play... I can't buy that.

[crewcrazy]

I don't have a problem with a player trying to get noticed by the coaching staff by going all-out in a spring training game...obviously the guy doesn't want to be just another camp body. Look at preseason football -- the hits aren't any less hard even though the games don't count towards the standings. You're not going to get noticed by the coaching staff in preseason football by shoving a guy out of bounds, and you're not going to get noticed in spring training by just getting tagged out.

[billyhallfan]

Dave Duncan's other son seems to be a real punk. Maybe I just have blinders on regarding Chris.

 

he isn't he is really nice, he signed a ball for me outside of miller park last year and was really nice while doing it.

[Hammer]

Guys, this is baseball...not soccer or volleyball. Plus, the dude is a catcher. If you don't want to get plowed over in a spring training game, don't block the plate. If you put yourself in that position you are asking to get cracked. If the guy from Tampa let up and went in softly or slid around the catcher he could just have easily gotten injured (hand/elbow/shoulder to knee of catcher hurts person sliding, not the catcher).

 

Also, Joe Girardi has nothing to say here. There is no bigger "red-ass" in baseball right now...plus he was a catcher. He should know full well that his man is not out there in a red jersey or a skirt. Sheesh.

[jason21nl]

There is no bigger "red-ass" in baseball right now..

 

 

Randy Johnson begs to differ http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Gopher74]

It's ST. Players look out for each other - how many other teams have bowled the C mulitple times this ST?

 

What difference does it make by asking a rhetorical question about how many times have other teams done it? First of all, I don't have an answer for that, and neither do you, so that doesn't really serve any purpose in trying to decide if the play made by one individual was a cheap play or if it was a legit play. The fact of the matter is, other teams DO do it, but you don't hear about it unless it's the Yankee's because of that Yankee arrogance. As if you can't possibly dare to play the Yankee's hard. How dare this kid who may never get another shot play the game the RIGHT way. The way the idiot manager of those arrogant Yankee's plays the game and teaches the game. It's such a double standard.

The player had specifically asked Girardi how to handle a situation where you'd bowl the C in the regular season, and Girardi told him point-blank that you just flat-out don't do that in ST... oh but I guess Girardi 'would totally bowl the C every time', huh? (yes, Goph, I know you didn't make that claim)

 

Honestly, unless I saw a link talking about this before this incident happened, I don't believe it. It's easy to sit there and act smug and say, "well, I've told out players that you don't play like this beacuse someone asked me about this very thing a couple weeks ago. It's a tad too convenient. And honestly, yes, I do believe that in the same situation, Girardi would run a guy over. Certainly if he was a young player desperately trying to make an impression.

Except that it's pretty common baseball protocol to not plow guys in ST.

 

Then wouldn't it stand to reason if there is this unwritten rule in baseball that you don't run over the catcher that you also don't block the plate? That's like saying that you can't steal second base in a ST game, but it's alright for the pitcher to try and pick you off. If it's this unwritten rule, then BOTH sides have to play the game that way. IF they don't, then it's all fair.

This notion that the guy did this 'to make the ballclub' doesn't hold any water to me. If your manager evaluates talent poorly enough where he needs to see you plow a kid in the 8th inning of a ST game to notice you, I'm glad he's not my manager. Either that or you're just not a very talented baseball player.

First of all, he may not be a real talented kid. So what? What on Earth would that have to do with this other than take a cheap shot at the kid(not that he's reading this or anything, just that it's a pointless shot)? Just like the manager comment. It's rather transparent.

 

Second, nobody's saying that this one play is going to get the kid noticed, what we're TRYING to say is that the kid's playing the game the right way. He's trying to score, and trying to show he's a guy who hustles and is going to do whatever he can within the rules of the game to help his team win. It absolutely boggles my mind that you're so upset with the Rays over this, yet you have nothing to say about the Yankee catcher blocking the plate for no reason. Why does he get a pass? He basically made the Ray's players mind up for him. You block the plate, you either go through a guy or you get thrown out. Simple as that.

 

[Gopher74]

If you don't want to get plowed over in a spring training game, don't block the plate. If you put yourself in that position you are asking to get cracked. If the guy from Tampa let up and went in softly or slid around the catcher he could just have easily gotten injured (hand/elbow/shoulder to knee of catcher hurts person sliding, not the catcher).

 

Also, Joe Girardi has nothing to say here. There is no bigger "red-ass" in baseball right now...plus he was a catcher. He should know full well that his man is not out there in a red jersey or a skirt. Sheesh.

I absolutely agree. I played catcher all through my baseball career. It's very simple, if you're blocking the plate when you have no business blocking the plate, be prepared to wipe the snot off of your face when it comes bubbling out, because you're going to get blown the hell up.

 

And you're exactly right. What happened to JJ Hardy? So what would this conversation be if this kid did a hook slide and since the catcher was blocking the plate, got his leg caught up and tore up his knee? The whole "it's just spring training so don't go hard" theory doesn't hold any water for me since that's when you're more susceptible to injury. I think any athlete knows that when you decide to go easy and to play less than your hardest, that's when you're going to get hurt.

Frankly I don't get the double standard....I suspect it's because it's "The Yankee's", and for anyone to have the audacity to play the Yanks hard is just unheard of.

[COOOOP]

Billy Crystal is going to bat lead off for the Yankees today, I guess if he is crowding the plate, they should knock him off?

He should be plunked actually, for being in the movie My Giant if for no other reason.

[TooLiveBrew]

What difference does it make by asking a rhetorical question about how many times have other teams done it?

 

My point is about the culture of ST. Guys have a certain amount of respect for each other & their livelihoods, and the Rays are clearly breaking from this in a foolish attempt to show everyone their big... SUVs. And what comes of it? A guy getting knocked out over a play that will have no bearing on anyone's career but the one that got hurt & is now missing time.

 

 

Honestly, unless I saw a link talking about this before this incident happened, I don't believe it.

 

Fair enough... I follow the Yankees a lot more closely than most here, but I can't remember where I saw it / provide a link.

 

 

what we're TRYING to say is that the kid's playing the game the right way.

 

And what I'm saying is the total opposite. Regular season I wouldn't even bat an eye, even if the injury to the C were more severe. Tampa Bay is putting careers of other players on the line in ST so they can feel better about their 'We're tuff!' quotient. That's disgusting.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Tampa Bay is putting careers of other players on the line in ST so they can feel better about their 'We're tuff!' quotient. That's disgusting.

 

Don't you think that's a bit of an over-generalization after *one* tough play at the plate in which *the catcher was blocking the plate*, making a hook slide or feet first slide just as dangerous as bowling over the catcher?

[endaround]

Please explain how spring training is so much different then minor league baseball that what wouldn't be noticed in a AA game suddenly is beyond the pale in Spring Training when the exact same players are involved with both

[TooLiveBrew]

I guess I can't explain it any further than I have already. If this were a RS game, I wouldn't care about this at all. It's just a matter of opinion - I don't think ST is the time to be trying to bowl over the C. A hook slide was totally feasible in this situation, and if you don't score the run, big whoop - the games don't count anyway.

[DuWayne Steurer]

and if you don't score the run, big whoop - the games don't count anyway.

 

If the run scoring (or not) is no big whoop, then why is the catcher blocking the plate? As many have said, a hook slide is just as dangerous, as a hand can get stepped on, or fingers jammed or broken (Jenks has proved this), and a straight slide into a guy wearing body armor can result in an injury to the runner as well (JJ Hardy).

[TooLiveBrew]

If the run scoring (or not) is no big whoop, then why is the catcher blocking the plate?

 

He was fielding a throw. It wasn't like he was four steps up the line thumping his chest as the ball was being relayed home. The runner, otoh, was gearing up to hit the C at least halfway to home plate.

 

I understand that injury can occur on a hook-slide, but ask yourself which play is more likely to induce injury - a hook slide, or a full-grown man running full speed & lowering his shoulder into another man's upper-body?

 

 

Don't you think that's a bit of an over-generalization after *one* tough play at the plate in which *the catcher was blocking the plate*, making a hook slide or feet first slide just as dangerous as bowling over the catcher?

 

Except that it wasn't 'one tough play' this ST. Crawford did it the previous week, too.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I understand that injury can occur on a hook-slide, but ask yourself which play is more likely to induce injury - a hook slide, or a full-grown man running full speed & lowering his shoulder into another man's upper-body

 

I'd say the odds are in the favor of the guy wearing all the body armor.

 

I'm not going to go any further with this, it's obvious you think taking the catcher out in ST is "tuff-guy stuff", and I think it's a hard, clean play. Nobody's going to change their mind, so further argument at this point is just static.

[Gopher74]

He was fielding a throw. It wasn't like he was four steps up the line thumping his chest as the ball was being relayed home. The runner, otoh, was gearing up to hit the C at least halfway to home plate.

 

First of all, it doesn't matter if he was thumping his chest or not. That has absolutely no bearing on this. Nobody's arguing he ran over the catcher because he was showing anyone up. The fact is he was run over because he was blocking the plate. The suggestion that he had to block the plate because he was recieving the throw is the exact opposite. The fact that he didn't have the ball is all the MORE reason to not block the plate. It's really very simple. If you don't have the ball do not block the plate, give the runner access to the plate.

 

I just don't understand how you can lay this all at the feet of the Rays. It's like saying if a batter is hanging way out over the plate and a pitcher throws inside and hits him, that's cheap because it's "just" Spring Training. Well the fact the responsibility lies with the catcher to get out of the way if he doesn't want to get run over. You're right, it IS just Spring Training. So why is a guy blocking the plate like it's game 7?

 

I understand that injury can occur on a hook-slide, but ask yourself which play is more likely to induce injury - a hook slide, or a full-grown man running full speed & lowering his shoulder into another man's upper-body?

We don't have to. We can ask Joe Torre. In one of the links provided there was a comment from Joe Torre about when they used to play Mike Scoiscia Torre would tell his players to go into home plate hard every time because he was block the plate and he didn't want to risk an injury. This is true if you're playing a ST'ing game, a regular season game, a little league game or any game. You don't want to get run over don't-block-the-plate.

 

But in any event, let's say that we agree that the running over the catcher was dirty. Let's just say that for arguments sake. That was a play that at least does have a place in the game, even if you don't believe it's in ST'ing. Going into second base and cleating the 2nd basemen is about as dirty as it gets.

 

Frankly, if there is any team that's dirty and has the "we're tough guys" mentality it's the Joe Girardi managed New York Yankee's.

[TooLiveBrew]

I have said I think what Duncan did was disgusting.

 

I'm not going to go any further with this, it's obvious you think taking the catcher out in ST is "tuff-guy stuff", and I think it's a hard, clean play. Nobody's going to change their mind, so further argument at this point is just static.

100% agreement.

[Gopher74]

I have said I think what Duncan did was disgusting.

I apologize. I did see where you said that the other play was "trash".

 

I just don't agree with the premise that both plays were equal or that the second play was justified because of the first play. I should have worded it differently.

 

 

I just can't get too upset about the Rays playing trash baseball (in a vain attempt to say 'Yeeeea!? We're tough!') and receiving trash in kind.? Do unto others...

[danzig6767]

I understand that injury can occur on a hook-slide, but ask yourself which play is more likely to induce injury - a hook slide, or a full-grown man running full speed & lowering his shoulder into another man's upper-body

 

I'd say the odds are in the favor of the guy wearing all the body armor.

I caught for a pretty long time and got run over, the equipment doesn't really help at all. The reason it usually is quite painful when getting run over at the plate is you usually aren't able to brace yourself for the hit and a fairly thin pad on your chest does little when a person running full speed smashes into you.. Take two different situations. Have someone crash into you without being braced for it an another time brace yourself, the difference is sizable in that not being braced hurts more and opens you up more to injury.

Once in awhile the ball arrives early enough to brace yourself, more often it's a bang bang play and you have to follow the baseball which doesn't allow enough time to set yourself before impact. I got hit so hard once it seemed like i couldn't breathe for like three minutes, it really sucked.

 

[SeriesFinale]

I thought this was a pretty funny/sickening post-script. Apparently Hank Steinbrenner thinks that when a Yankeees or Red Sox catcher blocks the plate, small-market baserunners should defer to their Eastern Seaboard Overlords, put the brakes on, and get tagged out.

[dadofandrew]

The runner for the Rays is an idiot for doing such a thing in an exhibition. That said, the Yankees getting 2 guys suspended for "retaliating", which never hurts anyone, is even more stupid.