Cameron has post-concussion syndrome? Explains failed drug test?

[Gopher74]

The Doug Melvin-led CIA negotiates with Randy Choate, but not terrorists. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

LOL...great line. Apologies for the "AOL" talk as I've been yelled at for that before, but I felt as though it was appropriate in this particular instance.

 

[Big Reed]

to answer Golpher.

 

Pettitte. he first came out publically and said he never did steriods or HGH. Never. he was almost like Palmero. then the Mitchell report came out. then he was asked to testify before congress. At first he said he onlt took peds twice, and felt very bad about doing so. That was his second lie on the subject. then he came forward again and said he took them again, and that his father provided them to him. he said his father used them for his injury/illness. Then his father comes forward and says he got the peds from pettitte's best friend for pettite, not himself. Then pettite threw Clemens under the bus saying he took steriods. Was he telling the truth or lieing? Pettite sounds like a real honest guy, but his truth just doesn't match the facts.

 

Josh hamilton. While he was being suspended in the minors, neither he nor the rays said anything as to the reasons why. it was several years after the fact when he decided to tell his "feel good" story about how he has left his past behind him and he's now on the straight and narrow. And we all believed Jon Daly when he said his drinking problems were behind him. and we all felt sorry for jon Daly when he had the shakes while trying to golf. So now we feel sorry for josh hamilton and we root for him. he's conquered his vices. or at least that's the image he portrays and wants us to believe. and what happens to that great story when he has a relapse and tests positive once more?

 

Cameron's post concussion syndrome. I've been in two auto accidents and experienced a mild concussion. I find it very hard to believe Cameron wants to take medication this far removed from his colision, when he was not taking any medication for it previously. That sounds very suspect.

 

gagne. i used him as an example to back up my point. I could have used Giambi. neither one admitted to using any peds. they just apoligized for bringing bad publicity to their name and their team.. Athletes very seldom reveal anything publically about their injuries. that information is usually released by GM's like Melvin. felix pie didn't go on WGN and say to the world my balls are twisted but they're straight now. Hank Aaron didn't come forward with all the hate he was going through. In general, athletes and GMs are very careful not to reveal very much information about their injuries or personal problems. You don't hear Artest talking about his problems with his girlfriend. You hear about it from SPY and GOSSIP news reports.

 

Bud Selig has not been very forthcoming as a commish either. The facts/data about all the players who have filed for exemptions because of ADD and other illnesses was never made public by Bud or MLB. It was made public by several doctors under oath to congress. My guess is Bud didn't want the public to know. he knew we'd be in an uproar if we found out the facts. I highly doubt all the players who say they have ADD actually have it. I knew two children who had ADD. they didn't take their medication on the weekends when they played baseball and other sports.

 

mitchell report. the information included came from one dealer in new York and financial records from a place in Forida. Common sense says that there are dealers in Texas and the West Coast and Chicago. Common sense says that the names included probably represented about 20% of the actual users. Has any baseball player not named in the mitchell report come forward and admitted he used peds in the past 5 years? I didn't think so. I'd be more impressed with the athlete who came forward and said that he actually used peds, but was never caught than the athlete who comes forward and says the Mitchell report was true.

 

as for me being in the minority on this issue, it doesn't bother me. I've been in the minority most of my life. I like barry Manilo music. Why am I so skepitcal about all things in life? I guess it comes from being in military intelligence for a good portion of my life. I was trained to look for the things the general public ignores and takes for granted. My dad worked for the IRS. To me, Cameron applying for an exemption for an injury that took place last year is sending up a big red flag. it's my nature to look at and examine all the possibilities. maybe it's nothing. or maybe he's trying to be as truthful as Marion Jones. people used to believe her. how many times did she lie? I have a hard time believing any athlete when in the past it was not in their nature to discuss their personal injuries and medications. Is this the age when athletes start revealing all their personal issues? I think not. if Cameron is being honest now about wanting an exemption to treat his post concussion syndrome, then he was not being honest to the brewers when they signed him. With their experience with koskie, I have to believe if Cameron had suggested he was still having post concussion symptoms, they would never have signed him.

 

So I ask, what's the real reason Cameron wants a drug exemption?

[Gopher74]

Ok, there's a lot to sift through here.

 

First of all, as for Pettite, I'd like to see the links where he denied using within the last couple months, and the other lies you've said.

 

With regard to Joey Hamilton, I still don't know what this has to do with anything, but it's been no secret that he was suspended for drugs. It was most definitely well known prior to his story becoming a "feel good" story. As for what happens when he has a relapse, again, I don't know how this has even the slightest bearing on the topic at hand. Frankly you seem to be going off on a tangent about something totally unrelated. But all the same, you sound awfully judgmental. Some people have problems. Again, this has nothing to do with Cameron in any way, but I don't understand the disdain for people who have their own personal demons that they need to combat. I guess I just don't see it as your place to admonish them.

 

As for your take on Cameron's PCS based on your accidents, I'd just say that your not a doctor, and that your experiances can be very different. I do find it interesting after going through a situation here in Milwaukee with Corey Koskie where we got a very clear and sobering example of just how devastating that injury can be, that you'd be so certain that he's lying about it.

 

I also can't disagree more about Athletes not talking about their injuries. When an athlete is injured, that's often the first thing they're asked about and they almost always talk about it. To use Felix Pie's injury as your example, I don't know if you're trying to be funny, but clearly when someone has an embarrassing injury, yea, they may not be as forthcoming about it. But Ben Sheets, Chris Carpenter, Albert Pujols just as a couple examples, they don't talk about their injuries? And then the Hank Aaron thing, again, what does that have to do with anything? Man, you're just bouncing around from one issue to another here with almost no relation to each other.

 

But again, let's just say that they don't. I think it's absolutely 100 pct wrong, but let's say that athletes don't talk about their injuries. SO WHAT!! Why does that mean that Cameron is lying? Is Corey Koskie lying about his PCS? Now you're likely going to say he's not asking for an exemption, but you've brought up all these other players who don't meet the same criteria.

 

 

As for the Bud Selig thing, or the Mitchell report, I honestly don't even know how to respond to it, because frankly, I don't see how it has anything at all to do with Mike Cameron saying that he MAY have issues, and that he MAY need an exemption and you being so disgusted with this.

 

 

And finally, you lump Cameron in with all these other athletes. You compare him to Gange and Giambi. You say because they lied so must he be. I guess the very simple and very obvious follow up question would be what is his motivation? Yea, theres was because it could hurt their livelihoods. You also blame them for apologizing for the fact that they've created a distraction, but you need to understand, everyone knew what they were talking about, but they can't come out and say, especially Giambi that they took roids as it could be grounds to void his contract. Gange could have been suspended. So what's Cameron's? You still haven't offered up a plausible reason for why he would lie about this?

 

I guess it kinda comes off as though you see it this way because of your training, and I just don't see any correlation to anything you've talked about.

 

 

 

So I ask, what's the real reason Cameron wants a drug exemption?

 

 

Why don't you tell us why YOU think he would? Also be sure to tell us why the Doctors he's going to see would lie about it. Be sure to explain why it's hard to imagine that a player who experienced the most violent baseball collision that I've ever seen couldn't have PCS? I know this isn't a court of law, but man, talk about being guilty until proven innocent for almost no reason.

[brettac1]

I would have been shocked if that collision didn't cause some lasting problems.

[clancyphile]

i understand your skepticism Big Reed, but that collision between Beltran and Cameron was not "not very hard" ... if my memory serves me right, that was a very very very brutal collision, and both were really shaken up, and one missed significant time i believe?

That play where Koskie was hurt did not look very bad on the replays. I remember seeing it, and wondering where the heck the concussion came from, and how Koskie could have had post-traumatic concussion syndrome from that, of all plays.

 

[Invader3K]

That's the problem with this whole overriding PED scandal...basically, people jump all over anything a baseball player says, or gets reported, regarding their health. A guy gets hit on the head or is found taking a prescription for an injury, and suddenly its this big conspiracy theory thing.

[Big Reed]

Golpher, I'll let you look up the links for pettite. In 2006 before the mitchell report came out, Clemens and pettite were both linked to a rumored report of taking peds. it was a FO news / National Enquirer type of rumor. they both denied it. Pettitte denied taking peds on several occasions before the mitchell report was released. His first lie. after the Mitchell report came out, pettite said he only took them twice. his second lie. Then he admitted he was lieing and said he took peds a third time, and it was his father who had the prescription for them because of his illness.. his third lie. his father said he got the drugs from pettitt's friend for pettite, not for himself. then pettite has another news conference to say he had lied in the past to protect his family, but this time he was telling the truth. And you bought that? I'm sorry, but I didn't believe much of what pettite said in his last press conference. it sounded too much like a script Roger and marion Jones had used before him. I did it for the good of the game. yeah sure.

 

I'm sorry golpher that you can't follow what I'm saying. To me it's obvious about my inclusions of Gagne, Hamilton, Aaron and Giambi. They are four examples of athletes who did not want to divulge their personal issues to the public. Yes Aaron and hamilton eventually told their story to the public, but it was long after the fact. Aaron never said anything about his off the field hate problems when he was a player. Hamilton never talked about his drug addiction until it was already a well known fact. My posts are long enough. Do you want me to include every player and what they haven't divulged? Should I have included Paul Laduca and Mike Morgan and Estrada? Evry time an athlete comes clean, I have to wonder if he is doing so of his free will, or if some SPY/GOSSIP spy magazine is blackmailing him that they will print the story unless they publically come forward and admit it. Would Michael Vick ever have come forward if the press had not first nailed him? The press had more evidence on Vick than the FBI did. He was convicted by the press long before he ever went to trial.

 

I don't recall Cameron ever going public and admitting to what substance he took that resulted in his suspension. I've read a lot of reports as to what it was. I don't recall Cameron informing the public about it or being honest or forthcoming about it. I've read it wasn't for steriods. By the MLB rules, if not for steriods, then a suspension resulting in 25 days would be a second offense. I don't recall Cameron informing the public what his first offense was. I just don't see Cameron as being as honest and truthful and candid as you are making him out to be. Where are all these admissions of his past drug use?

 

I will admit I'm naeve about drugs. I don't take drugs. I didn't realize isulin can act as a masking agent for steriods. I didn't realize how blood doping can be so effective for cyclists. I didn't realize that HGH if taken in huge quantities can also be a masking agent for steriods. I didn't realize so many baseball players suffered from ADD - and only in the past 5 years. I didn't realize how many ways people can cheat a urine drug test. I didn't realize how many pro athletes can lie but sound so convincing in their lies. I didn't realize how many athletes took uppers and downers as if they were jelly beans and how readily they were available. I didn't realize how many doctors had no morals and would write a subscription for illnesses that were not true. I didn't realize how easy it is to obtain prescriptio n drugs online. I didn't realize how long this has been going on. until this year.

 

Just because guys like Randy Johnson, Sosa and Jenkins never tested positive, it makes me speculate that they either had medical exemptions or better masking agents than the other ball players. the vast majority of the players mentioned in the Mitchell report were not included because of positive drug tests, but rather because of financial records and testimony by several dealers. I've noticed nobody has offered to take truth syrum or a lie detector test to prove their innocence.

 

yes, a very small sample has given a very large sample a very bad name. I'm led to believe that the NFL has an even greater problem of usage of HGH than baseball does. The entire Carolina panthers' defensive line was reported to be using peds during their super bowl appearance.

 

as for doctors and their ethics, most of the drugs and prescriptions athletes receive are made by team doctors and personal trainers. it's in the best interest of that personal trainer to write those type of prescriptions lest they lose their sugar-daddy. if Bonds' personal trainer was ethical, and didn't provide him with the peds he wanted, bonds would have found a new personal trainer. I will admit I'm naive about personal trainers. how many athletes have personal trainers? 10%? 20%? I trust personal trainers even less than athletes.

 

As for Cameron wanting an exemption and using post concussion syndrome as a reason, doesn't anybody else find it odd that he has waited this long after the concussion to seek treatment? if what he says is ttrue, I would have thought he would have been seeking these medications 6 months ago. it's very hard for me to believe these symptoms just started surfacing now. I' m quite confident that doctors alerted him at the time of the collision of what possible post symptoms might occur and that he should alert them immediately. I do not doubt that cameron is experiencing some type of post concussion syndrome. But the timing of his seeking an exemption seems a bit off. If my back starts hurting 6 months after my auto accident, could I say it was a result of my auto accident? most doctors would say why didn't you report this earlier.

 

Should I give Cameron the benefit of the doubt that he's being truthful? I gave that benefit to McGuire, Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. I've got no more benefit to give out. I used to think pro wrestling and rollerball derby were real, and that the kansas City bombers won so many times because they were good. I used to think TV news reports were truthful. I've come to realize it's all about spin and entertainment and money. and now I found out Jed Clampett didn't get his money from oil, but rather he used GEICO. What's the next lie to come out? Barney Fife cheated on Thelma Loo? that there really isn't an Easter Bunny? That's it's just Santa dressed up as the Easter Bunny? I often wondered why the Easter Bunny was so big and fat. or that lepprichons don't have a pot of gold anymore? it's all just mutual funds, bonds and reits? or that rabbit feet are not lucky?

 

unfortunately, at least for me, basball players are now viewed by me as guilty until proven innocent. Their word holds little value. the game is no longer clean. it's also no longer a game. it's become a business just like Wal Mart.

[jazzytrav]

Golpher, I'll let you look up the links for pettite.

Not to throw myself into the conversation, but I was always under the assumption that it's proper etiquette to post your own links to back up your claims. Especially if you're questioned on them.

[Gopher74]

I would have been shocked if that collision didn't cause some lasting problems.

Yea that really was one of those where it's almost hard to look at. Like I said, they're lucky. If they would have hit just a little bit differently that was a collision that was so bad the effects could have been much worse than they are now.

 

[Gopher74]

Big Reed wrote:

Reed, shouldn't it be on you to provide a link to these three occasions of Pettite lying in the last 6 months? You're the one calling the man a liar and saying he lied three times. I don't believe that he did lie three times. In either event, the fact remains that has nothing to do with Mike Cameron, but still, I do think if you're going to present something as evidence, that it should be on you to provide the link.

 

I'm sorry golpher that you can't follow what I'm saying.

That I don't see the least bit of correlation to athletes lying about taking performance enhancing drugs and Mike Cameron looking into if he MAY need an exemption for a legitimate injury does not mean I don't understand what you're saying. I don't understand why you're making this connection. I simply don't think that one has anything to do with the other. I mean, seriously, can I bring in examples of players telling the truth about things that also in no way relate to this particular topic?

I don't recall Cameron ever going public and admitting to what substance he took that resulted in his suspension.

 

Don't change the criteria. You said that he hadn't talked publically about the suspension. He did...ad nauseum. To have not heard him talk about it would have meant you weren't paying attention. When he signed here it was almost all he talked about.

 

The fact is he said he didn't know. For the record, 13 pct of supplements contain things that are banned by baseball. It's very easy to see how someone could take something with ephedra in it(almost all diet pills had it, rip fuel, any number of things at GNC, which is what his suspension was supposed to be for).

 

Where are all these admissions of his past drug use?

Are you still talking to me? To be perfectly honest, I have to check because you're asking questions about things I've never talked about.

First of all, where do you get evidence of "all these past issues of drug use"? You're not being intellectually dishonest. Through his entire career he's been in trouble or even linked to any type of banned substance ONCE. One single time, so framing it like this is just ridiculous.

 

Would Michael Vick ever have come forward if the press had not first nailed him? The press had more evidence on Vick than the FBI did. He was convicted by the press long before he ever went to trial.

 

You keep using this argument which again doesn't have the first thing to do with this topic.

 

Again, as simply as I can say it, you're comparing athletes who have committed CRIMES to Mike Cameron. I'm sorry, but that is absolutely ridiculous.

First of all, Mike Vick would have to be even dumber than I thought to come out and talk about what he was being charged with.

 

Second, how does dog fighting equate to "I'm going to have tests and see if I MAY have the need to POSSIBLY use the exemption from Major League Baseball". What the hell would he be lying about? I'm serious, I'd like to hear this rather than examples of a professional athlete in a totally unrelated situation.

 

Hamilton never talked about his drug addiction until it was already a well known fact. My posts are long enough. Do you want me to include every player and what they haven't divulged?

 

OK, beyond telling you once again that this doesn't have the first thing to do with the topic at hand, you're wrong. Well, at least you were wrong. You initially stated that Joey Hamilton didn't talk about his drug problems prior to his "feel good story", ie, last year. The problem with that is he was on the cover of SI and gave SEVERAL interviews, including one on HBO sports about his addiction.

 

AS for Hank Aaron, again. Wow. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not going to argue any longer about how forthcoming players are about other topics. The fact that they HAVE to speak with the media(literally have to or are fined) should say enough. Just watching Sports Center should be enough, but whatever. You're drawing me into this argument that again, isn't relevant. It'd be like arguing about how bad Steroids are for you...except that would be more relevant to this topic.

 

I didn't realize so many baseball players suffered from ADD - and only in the past 5 years.

Do you have any link supporting this?

I will admit I'm naeve about drugs.

I'm also guessing you don't know about supplements and how many of them can create a false positive?

 

Just because guys like Randy Johnson, Sosa and Jenkins never tested positive, it makes me speculate that they either had medical exemptions or better masking agents than the other ball players.

 

And again, still has nothing to do with this thread about Mike Cameron. Nobody has EVER accused Mike Cameron of taking steroids.

 

As for Cameron wanting an exemption and using post concussion syndrome as a reason, doesn't anybody else find it odd that he has waited this long after the concussion to seek treatment?

No. I'm not a doctor, but I'm also not going to vilify him for doing absolutely nothing wrong at this point in looking into the situation. In fact, I'd find it incredibly irresponsible for him not to if he felt the lingering effects.

it's very hard for me to believe these symptoms just started surfacing now.

Nobody EVER said that they were. I don't believe anywhere anyone said that they were just surfacing now. Perhaps he's become more aware of the signs because he came to the Brewers and learned about Koskie or talked to the trainer and he suggested he seek further treatment. Either way, I don't use my ignorance as a reason to convict a guy of a harmless "crime", and I use crime in quotes for a reason. I don't see what you think he's done wrong in this instance.

I do not doubt that cameron is experiencing some type of post concussion syndrome.

 

I just don't get this. This contradicts nearly everything you said in this previous paragraph and the general tone of your posts.

 

But you don't doubt that he's suffering from it, you just don't think he should be treated for it? Or maybe he should just take whatever he needs and then if he gets suspended again like last time, then "oh well"?

But the timing of his seeking an exemption seems a bit off.

 

How so? He's not saying that BECAUSE of this he took something and that's why he was suspended.

 

If my back starts hurting 6 months after my auto accident, could I say it was a result of my auto accident?

 

Again, what difference does it make? This analogy doesn't work at all because Cameron's not trying to use the incident for any gain. He's not placing blame, he's not going to court, he's not trying to get anything out of it. I just don't get it. You're saying that, "yea, I believe he has PCS", but he waited too long". "If I got hurt, could I go back and blame it on an accident 6 months prior". Who cares what it's from? That really doesn't matter at all. If it's from the collision or if he fell down his steps that's not the point.

most doctors would say why didn't you report this earlier.

Again, I can't speak to what Doctors would say, but I can only assume that they wouldn't refuse him treatment because you don't know why he "waited" so long.

 

I mean, if a guy has a broken bone in his hand that he deals with for a couple years, are you going to call him a liar because he goes to the doctor when it continues to bother him?

Should I give Cameron the benefit of the doubt that he's being truthful? I gave that benefit to McGuire, Bonds, Clemens and Sosa. I've got no more benefit to give out.

 

Seriously....do you really not see the difference here?

 

You're saying that because players have lied in the past about taking PED's, that Mike Cameron must be lying.....you haven't said about what yet, or what his motivation might possibly be, just that because someone lied in the past that Mike Cameron MUST be lying. The only problem? He's not doing anything wrong.

The fact is, you don't know. You don't have the first clue what he may want to take or what he may need to take, what that is going to mean in regard to the drug test, you don't know what his symptoms are, you don't know how he's feeling. You've got almost no information other than the fact that he decided to go get tests to see if his BRAIN was still messed up and if he may need to take something, and all the sudden you start to compare him to Mike Vick and Barry Bonds and that he must be a liar.

 

I used to think pro wrestling and rollerball derby were real, and that the kansas City bombers won so many times because they were good. I used to think TV news reports were truthful. I've come to realize it's all about spin and entertainment and money.

Congrats. You've moved on from comparing athletes lying about taking drugs to a 1960's sitcom, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and Pro-Wrestling and you've done it in an incredibly condescending tone.

 

But the suggestion that you're just smarter than all of us who don't see the problem, or what Mike Cameron even would be lying about, or what his motivation may be by trying to change this topic to make this a thread about the fact that there are people that lie about there is just flat out ridiculous. It's insulting for you to compare this to Pro-Wrestling, the Beverly Hillbillies, or anything else you included in the last paragraph. The simple fact here is that you're just aimlessly spinning around here and talking about all the non-truths in the world today, a goal that quite frankly doesn't address the fact that you still seem to think that Cameron is lying...even though you believe that he DOES still suffer effects from the incident.

 

 

unfortunately, at least for me, basball players are now viewed by me as guilty until proven innocent. Their word holds little value. the game is no longer clean. it's also no longer a game. it's become a business just like Wal Mart.

Ok, so then you're essentially admitting that no matter what, you're going to think that every player is lying. I guess Prince is lying about his diet. He probably actually eats dogs after his dog fighting matches. I mean, if Mike Vick would lie about it, why wouldn't he?

 

It's fine to not trust players. I don't think anyone really does right now(though you're all alone on Pettite, if anything, his rep improved after this latest incident, and just saying he did these things does not serve as proof), but that still doesn't mean that you can take these mundane statements and just go off on a tangent and come right out of left field and accuse him of....well, I'm still not quite sure what you've accused him of.

 

I guess to conclude this incredibly long post, I'd ask you should I now not believe anything anyone in the armed forces says because there were no WMD's in Iraq? Should I go through and list all the inaccurate information and then call you a liar? Especially in the intelligence community? No because those two things don't have any relation to each other.

[danzig6767]

I would have been shocked if that collision didn't cause some lasting problems.

Off the top of my head, that was the most brutal collison i've ever seen in baseball where two defenders are going for a ball.