So now that Cameron is signed, what are we going to get for all our pitching?

[chadomac]

He has no point. It's just a full on mancrush and that doesn't constitute as an argument.

 

Villanueva has done everything that Parra has done at the Major League level, and more, and at a younger age.

[dadofandrew]

No, 13 pitchers will not happen, barring for a week or two at some point for doubleheaders or guys being nicked up.

[pogokat]

Parra's never thrown more than 140 innings in a seaosn and he's a catastrophic injury risk...giving him 175+ innings in the rotation next year makes as much sense as wehn the brewers tried the same deal with neugebaur in the dark ages...

 

 

 

parra needs to start in the pen or AAA...I prefer AAA because i would like to see him throw between 160-170 innings in 2008 with him taking a place in the starting lineup either mid 2008 or in 2009

[chadomac]

Agreed, Parra would be a great replacement for Sheets in 09. Gallardo, Villanueva, Suppan, Parra, Bush/Cappy/somebody.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Why not keep 13 pitchers? We don't need that many position players. Most of our positions guys are young guys that don't need to be platooned. Gross is a solid 4th OF. Better to keep the arms fresh in the bullpen than have a guy like Tony Graffanino around. Why do we need a deep bench? Who on the team other than maybe Kendal do you want Yost to pinch hit for? Prince? Hart? Braun? Hall? Hardy? Weeks? You want to pinch hit Craig Counsel for any of those guys? I don't.

[TooLiveBrew]

The season is long - guys get tired, things happen... a deep bench, especially in the NL (double switches, etc.) is a very, very good thing.

Better to keep the arms fresh in the bullpen than have a guy like Tony Graffanino around

 

Is this a knock on Graffy? He was a very sound player for us, and provided exactly what you want from a bench player. If anything, he was our best reserve before he got hurt.

[hauser42]

Parra's never thrown more than 140 innings in a seaosn and he's a catastrophic injury risk...giving him 175+ innings in the rotation next year makes as much sense as wehn the brewers tried the same deal with neugebaur in the dark ages...

 

 

 

parra needs to start in the pen or AAA...I prefer AAA because i would like to see him throw between 160-170 innings in 2008 with him taking a place in the starting lineup either mid 2008 or in 2009

Well our ace has pitched 156, 106, and 141 innings the last 3 years so we really have to find some guys to eat up innings right now out ace is not doing it.

[MNBrew]

Villanueva has done everything that Parra has done at the Major League level, and more, and at a younger age.

chadomac, you're right on: Parra has stud starter potential, to be sure. So, too, does Villanueva. The only real reason the Brewers had Villanueva, whom they've always planned on as a starter, in the 'pen was that he pitched SO well in spring training last year that they couldn't justify sending him down to AAA, where he would've started. He just flat out made them keep him. But they had no room in the rotation until injuries happened, so he pitched well in the 'pen 'til he was overused and worn out. They sent him to the minors and had him start again, then he joined the Brewers' rotation for September and proved he deserved the spot that seems his to lose this spring.

Should the Twins have kept Johan Santana in the 'pen 5 years ago because he was successful there even though they knew his future was as a starter. Granted, the Twins didn't know just how good Santana would be. And I'm not saying Villanueva will be as good as Santana, only that both organizations' long-term views of them as young guys putting in time in the 'pen was that eventually they'd both be starters.

 

I hope Parra pushes his way onto this team. But if he pitches well and doesn't make it, hopefully that means we just have that many better pitchers and that much better depth.

[AdvantageSchneider]

The season is long - guys get tired, things happen... a deep bench, especially in the NL (double switches, etc.) is a very, very good thing.

Better to keep the arms fresh in the bullpen than have a guy like Tony Graffanino around

 

Is this a knock on Graffy? He was a very sound player for us, and provided exactly what you want from a bench player. If anything, he was our best reserve before he got hurt.

You have a guy like Craig Counsel. He can play all 3 if positions; he can give the guys a break once a week. Same with Gross in the OF. The bench guys stay sharper since they are seeing more ABs.

 

40 year old guys have a tendency to get hurt. Graffy was fine, but the time for him has passed.

 

The fact is that I like our bullpen, but it has an inordinate number of older pitchers or guys that probably need to be coddled a little bit, and that's why we should really go with a 13 man staff. Gagne wore down after Boston acquired him and overused him. Torres was horribly overused in Pittsburg and is coming off an injury. We all know T-bow pitches better when he's not going back to back days. Shouse is 40 years old. The bullpen wore down last year because they Yost kept throwing out the same guys in critical situacions because he didn't want to pitch spurling or some other puke. Now we don't have to do that because we have 13 major league pitchers.

We had a deep bench last year and what did it get us? Kevin Mench batting in the 9th inning against a right handed cubs reliever. The fewer subpar chess pieces you give Yost the better. All we heard about last year was how great it was to have a deep bench, but I don't remember Yost using that bench that well, or us winning that many games because of it. But I do remember losing quite a few games because Spurling or Balfour or some other scrub reliever couldn't throw strikes or keep the ball in the ball park.

 

Keep the best 25 players. If 13 of those guys happen to be pitchers, so be it.

[TooLiveBrew]

40 year old guys have a tendency to get hurt. Graffy was fine, but the time for him has passed.

 

Graffy wasn't & isn't 40. Nor do 40-y-o's 'have the tendency' to severly injure their knees on a freak play that could've injured any player at any age. He was better than 'fine' for us.

 

We had a deep bench last year and what did it get us? Kevin Mench batting in the 9th inning against a right handed cubs reliever.

Mench was left in the game, not subbed. Jenkins was on our deep bench, ready to help his team win, but according to Ned wasn't in the "flow of the game." Good call, Ned. Besides, even if Yost had subbed Mench for Jenks, would that be the fault of the depth, or a crappy managerial move?

 

If a RP gets hurt, we call one up from AAA. The flexibility of having one more bench position player imo is SO much greater than having one more Seth McClung.

[sbrylski]

I like Ennder's thought - if we can get a catcher prospect (i.e. Teagarden) using Capuano or Bush (and maybe a prospect), that'd be great. Otherwise shed Vargas for whatever we can get. Just dropping one player should clear it up enough and leave us with plenty of depth.

 

 

 

(Note to Schnieder: Losing Stetter is not "no big deal." Stetter and Pena have great chances to play large roles in our 2009 bullpen.)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Sheets will be on the DL with a sore pinky toe by May so Parra will get his chance soon.

[yoshii8]

I like the idea of getting Teargarden, or possibly a Jeff Mathis, Kelly Shoppach, or Gerald Laird type for pitching. I'd like to get a young catcher to split time w/ Kendall.

[bork]

The Cameron signing puts the Brewers payroll at around $82-83 million. That seems a bit higher than expected. Trading someone like Vargas for prospects gets them under $80 million.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Stetter is 27 years old and had a 4.49 era in AAA last year and has all of 5 major league innings in which he showed zero control. Color me unimpressed. He'll be 29 in 2009, lord help us if we're actually counting on him to be a big part of our 2009 bullpen. I'll say again, losing him is not a big deal.

 

 

 

"Mench was left in the game, not subbed. Jenkins was on our deep bench, ready to help his team win, but according to Ned wasn't in the "flow of the game." Good call, Ned. Besides, even if Yost had subbed Mench for Jenks, would that be the fault of the depth, or a crappy managerial move? "

 

 

 

That's exactly my point. I'd rather have a deep bullpen that a bench that's left to rot on the pine or be missuesd.

 

 

 

Somebody said we need a bench for double switches. Why? You really want to bring in craig counsel or gabe gross and take out potentially Hall or Hart or Hardy or weeks or Braun or Prince just so the pitcher's spot doesn't come up for a few more batters? That seems shortsighted to me. Set the lineup and let them play.

 

 

 

The fewer moving parts the better for Yost.

[yoshii8]

Yeah, but eventually your going to have to let your bench play, and you will need pinch hitters for the pitchers spot. Its a long season, and injuries do happen, so I don't think they will rot on the pine.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Injuries happen, that's why you have a DL.

 

 

 

Honestly, I bet if you asked the starters, they would all like to play 150 games. A lot of those guys had to split time or ride the pine when they first came up like Hart and Hall, they want the full time job. They've spent their time on the pine, now it's time to play.

 

 

 

You have to let your bench play if you've got 4 or 5 guys sitting on it that aren't getting regular PT. If you only hae 3-4 guys on it, they should all be getting regular AB's between PH and spot starts.

 

 

 

Last year every Sunday we trotted out the B-team and I don't recall us doing too well on those Sunday games. 13 pitchers would give Yost one less reason to give all our best players the day off at the same time.

[Ayt]

You think Parra has earned a spot in the rotation but Villanueva hasn't? Please explain your logic.

Yep, I feel exactly the same way. It also doesn't help Parra's case that he's never pitched 140 innings in a year. I'm not quite ready to give a guy a spot in the starting rotation given that fact.

What up, twirl?

I agree, of course. Parra need to lengthen out his arm in AAA, at least at the beginning of the year. He'll likely be called up later in the season, unless he blows up in camp and we decide we need him out of the pen. I don't see any way he starts for the big club given his injury history and his IP number.

 

[trwi7]

What up, twirl?

You know me from realgm.http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif

 

Just so I know, who are you on there?

Edit: Just looked at your name closer. You gotta be Ayt.

[JohnBriggs12]

The name that keeps coming to my mind is Brandon Inge. Detroit wants to unload him. And though their rotation is set, they really lack a veteran who could fill in if a starter goes down. I still think Inge could catch and actually press Kendall as a starter on the Brewers and haven't the Brewers become kings of the position switch? He's got a big contract, but if you unload an arby eligible pitcher, you at least make Detroit take money back.

[strawbossisevil]

I agree with those who said that we should go get a young catcher.

 

 

 

That seems to be the only hole in our 25 man roster at the moment. We have solid infield backups in Dillon and CC. Outfield with Gross and Gwynn.

 

 

 

Munson and Rivera both are not very good defensively (from what I've heard) and both will not provide significant offense.

 

 

 

I don't know if Inge is the answer, if he could still catch you'd think that's where he'd be playing. But I do like the idea of Teagarden or Mathis, or a similar type of player.

 

 

 

With Kendell's age, we have to be ready for an injury. Can any of you imagine having Munson or Rivera as the team's starting catcher? Ugh.

[clancyphile]

The rotation's pretty easy: Sheets, Gallardo, Suppan, Villanueva, and Capuano in that order.

 

The bullpen is a bit more complicated: Gagne's the closer, with Turnbow as his backup and sharing the 8th inning with Riske. Riske shares the 7th inning with McClung (who seemed to do OK in his stint with the Crew in `07), and Torres. Shouse splits time between being a LOOGY and handling the 7th. Dave Bush and Manny Parra handle long relief and spot starting.

[strawbossisevil]

I don't know clancy, baring any changes, I see the bullpen as the following:

 

 

 

9th - Gagne

 

8th - Riske

 

7th - Turnbow

 

7th - Torres

 

6th - Mota (we didn't trade for him and his pricey contract to just cut him)

 

Loogy - Shouse

 

Long Relief - Bush

 

 

 

Parra will probably start the season in AAA. (which with him and Bush both available in the case of injury provides us great depth)

 

 

 

McClung is probably either in AAA (if he can get through waivers) or lost to another team. He has potential certainly, but his career numbers do not give reason for optimism (aside from a few innings with Milwaukee last season).

[pogokat]

"Well our ace has pitched 156, 106, and 141 innings the last 3 years so we really have to find some guys to eat up innings right now out ace is not doing it."

 

 

 

Manny has pitched 91, 86, and 133 innings each of the last three years...he's way more fragile than sheets and there's no guarantee that he can throw 200 innings at a high level...he's never done anything close to that...in fact, he's barely hit 200 innings in most two year spans...

 

 

 

i think manny's awesome...and i still want him to be a starter...but counting on him to be in the rotation straight out of the gate is gonna work out like francisco liriano a couple years ago..

[Tbadder]

You know, none of our long term problems have been solved. We still need left-handed bats, relief pitchers (especially closer), catcher, centerfielder, etc. Every thing we've done is a stop gap measure--so be it, I think as a stop gap Melvin's done well, but we've got to still look ahead.

 

 

 

Having said that, I'm for trading Capuano and Vargas. Bush to me is a perfect 5th starter. I will admit I'm a total Cappy-hater. All I see is Cylde Wright when I see Chris. I just don't see too many pitchers coming back from that much losing no matter how much of it is team-based or bad luck. I'd sell this guy before spring training. I don't want scouts looking at him, he's through; dump him for whatever.

 

 

 

Having said all that, he does have some value because of previous production. I'd target the best minor league catchers and third basemen who are blocked at the major league level. I do the same with Vargas but wouldn't expect quite as much.

 

 

 

Long term, we have to hope Parra can be a significant part of the rotation. If he has arm problems this year though, we've got to start thinking in terms of young starters who are available as well, which is a much harder nut to crack I imagine. All this seems pretty difficult, like juggling more than 3 balls, so again my solution is really go for it and package our extra pitching, Hall, and top-prospects for a picther good enough to top the staff or slot inbetween Sheets and Gallardo.