Bill James on Craig Biggio

[Brewtacular]

Interesting article and a pretty good read.

 

http://www.slate.com/id/2184797

[iluvlamp]

Craig Biggio was awesome but then he sucked. So he was a ballplayer that grew old? He still wanted to play the game he loved? He did it only for 3,000 hits. James is a douche. This backhanded compliment stuff doesn't sit well with me. James treats players like cattle who should be put out to pasture. Biggio should be put out to stud.

[AdvantageSchneider]

He called Biggio one of the top 5 second basemen ever. Hardly a backhanded compliment. I don't think James is out of line pointing out that Biggio should have hung them up earlier. Other people have been pointing that out for over two years now.

 

Team goals should not take a back seat to individual goals. James is correct about that too. You are way off base.

[iluvlamp]

How did Biggio hurt his team? Why should Biggio have to retire because someone thinks he should? That's arbitrary crap. It's not like he was a slouch. He played almost all season every year of his career. Is not that something special or was he just too healthy for too long. As for the team goals, that's a joke. He was everything a team could want.

[monkeyman343434]

biggio had OPSs of .727 and .666 his last two seasons with over 500 AB's each season... that's not exactly helping the team. Biggio was amazing, growing up as a little kid, I loved Biggio and Bagwell - they were so much fun to watch and follow and Biggio's always been a classy guy. I think to get to 3000 hits, it would have been better for the Astros as a part-time player, although, they weren't really competing for anything so I guess Biggio at least drew a crowd to the park

[AdvantageSchneider]

Monkeyman pretty much pretty much nailed it, but I would add that on top of the poor offense, Biggio was really bad defensively too. So that's kind of how he hurt his team the last two years.

[Kurt]

I also have a kind-of-like/hate relationship with Biggio. When I saw he got his 3,000th hit, I was happy for him but then he tried to stretch that solid single into a double and was thrown out by 10 feet. It's a play most ballplayers would know not to do after middle school ball. It was the most embarrassing 3,000th hit on record.

[apirk]

Another player who found his power at the end of his career while chasing a record.

[TooLiveBrew]

Can someone make the obligatory 'Biggio hit all his HR in the front row of the Crawford Boxes graph' post, please! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

biggio had OPSs of .727 and .666 his last two seasons with over 500 AB's each season... that's not exactly helping the team.

 

But what were the Astros fighting for? 82-80 in 2006, & 73-89 in 2007. There's no way to argue that Biggio cost his team anything.

[joepepsi]

Actaully, a .727 OPS isn't far from average for a 2B. Cal Ripken wasn't very good for most of the last 10 years of his career, yet few complained. great players often stick around for too long. The fans still want to see them play, and the organizations have trouble letting go.

[homer]

The fans still want to see them play, and the organizations have trouble letting go.

 

Agreed. It's up to the player to figure out he's done. Mike Schmidt comes to mind as one who didn't want to embarrass himself.

[Oldcity]

The last two years he hurt the Astros from a baseball standpoint--they had no choice but to play him regularly. But he more than made up for it by putting fans in the seats and selling jerseys, so whatever.

[Tbadder]

So then Biggio is history's worst 3000 hit, hitter then?

[endaround]

God no. Biggio just was an anchor his last few seasons. His OPS hides his awful .306 OBP in 2006. And he followed that up with a .285 in 2007. Add to that Garner hitting him first to get him more ABs to get 3000 hits and you have a player hurting his team. Its not up to the playre to figure he's done, that is the teams job. The player's job is to do whats best for him, and for Biggion it was making fistfulls of money while assuring a HoF spot.

[TooLiveBrew]

The last two years he hurt the Astros from a baseball standpoint--they had no choice but to play him regularly. But he more than made up for it by putting fans in the seats and selling jerseys, so whatever.

 

How did this hurt a non-contending team? There was nothing for the Astros to lose, and as you point out, ton$ for them to gain.

 

 

EDIT: To elaborate on end's point, Biggio's career line - .281/.363/.433/.796... as primarily a 2B. That's HoF-worthy imho even without the 3,000 hits... but Craig's smart enough to know how much counting stats are used in HoF balloting.

[jason21nl]

I think Biggio is one of the reasons people came out to watch the team. He is as big of a fan favorite there as Yount is here, at least thats what a guy from Houston told me last year. Getting Biggio to 3,000 is what the he wanted, the team wanted and the fans wanted.

[iluvlamp]

Calling a great team player not a team player bothers me. It's weird. He won many many games for that team. His defense wasn't that bad either. 20 years of Braun, yes he was! All those doubles he hit were selfish. Every time he was HBP was just to brag about his bruises. All those runs he created and bases he stole were just for show. Plus he hit for some power and his OPS was just terrible his whole career. Meh.

[dadofandrew]

The Astros benched Biggio to move on about a year and a half too late last year. Any wonder what took them so long defines what a rudderless organization they are.

 

Good luck Coop...I'm afraid you'll need it.

[StatPipes]

The Astros made the playoffs 6 times out of the last 11 years, I don't think calling them rudderless is a fair assertion. Anything is possible in this division.

Biggio wasn't very good the last few years, but it isn't like Chris Burke was lighting things up either. Biggio was not the reason the Astros didn't make the playoffs the last two years.

[AdvantageSchneider]

In 2006 the Astros went 82-80 and finished 1.5 games behind the cards, and the Cards then went on to win the WS. Perhaps had the Astro gotten a little more production out of their second baseman, they would have made up those 2 games. So I would say that Biggio did cost them a lot in the last two years.

 

It's been generally my experience and everything i've read agrees that fans generallydo not come to watch individual players, they come out to watch winning baseball. We all love Robin Yount, but he played to quite a few empty seats his last few years in Milwaukee, even when he was on the brink of some big milestone.

[jason21nl]

well, I go to watch certain players and I made it a point last year to see one of my all time favorite players play. That guy was Biggio.

[homer]

"well, I go to watch certain players and I made it a point last year to see one of my all time favorite players play. That guy was Biggio. "

 

Exactly. Which is why a hall of famer on a severe decline needs to take himself out of the lineup - if he's still selling tickets there's little chance management will do it.

[jason21nl]

its not his job to take himself out of the line up.

[homer]

MIke Schmidt did.

 

Cal Ripken ended his consecutive game streak.

[jason21nl]

i'm sure there were times when Ripken should have sat due to an injury or sickness or something where he wasn't at full strength and probably hurt his team on that day. There might be a couple of examples of guys leaving while on top, but a player is going to play as long as he can. Maybe its a record he is chasing, or a career milestone, or he still thinks he can help the team, he is going to try to play. Its up to management to sit a player or go in a different direction.